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Foul out or disqualification

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by Mashamplan, Nov 30, 2022.

  1. Mashamplan

    Mashamplan Big Dog

    When I started out with these dogs st the close of the last century I was taught that if a dog loses due to the handler being fouled out, the dog can continue on its quest for a GrCh title if the recognised experience dogmen in attendance at the disqualification can attest that in all likelihood the dog would have won had it not been for the handler fouling out.
    Was there truth to this?
    tomjones2 likes this.
  2. patjr

    patjr Top Dog

    I think Gr Ch Art (lost on a foul) was the only dog that Jack Kelly allowed to keep his Grand Championship title.
    tomjones2 likes this.
  3. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    if that was the case the owner of a GRCH who was losing could foul out on purpose just to keep the title on their dog ,
  4. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Although I am sure there was a 'rule book'...there were always deviations and on the fly adjustments to said rules.

    There was adog in south Georgia in the early 90's who had won 2 and lost on an owner foul out. A couple years later I seen him listed as a CH. 4XW. The owner foul out was not mentioned in the pedigree. Just the wins/title. I wondered about that way back when. I often wondered if he was recognized as a CH by his owner and the Journal or just the owner.

    Never thought much about it. Great topic. Interested in the repsonses.

    tomjones2 likes this.
  5. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    By sdj titles have been w/l by foul in its history. Pretty sure other magazines had their own sets of rules.
    tomjones2 likes this.
  6. Mashamplan

    Mashamplan Big Dog

    I understand that and thought of that back then, as explained to me back then, the dog whose handler was disqualified must be believed to have been the likely winner, according to recognised reputable dogmen in attendance , if the match continued without the disqualification.
    I'm not arguing either for it or against but trying to establish if any of the old dogmen knew of such a stipulation. If a dog is having its ass kicked and its handler deliberately fouls out those in attendance would state so and it will not help its attempt to attain a GrCh title later or retain it's current GrCh title.
    But I see how it can be manipulated like most rules
    tomjones2 likes this.
  7. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    I can't see how since you never really know who is going to actually win or loose until it's all finished. How many dogs have quit on top or stood the line when they were ahead? Tons.

    I can't see being like yeah, that one there is going to win for sure when it is still going on. With the exception of those ones hollering and screaming when bit and pissing themselves in the box, you never really know until it's done and over. Even with them you really don't know. Plenty of dogs who looked to be the down dog ended up wining the match. Just as many look like they are going to win just to stop or get a bad bleeder etc etc.

    It ain't over till it's over IMO. Interesting topic though.
  8. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    IMO, to me, a loss is a loss and a win is a win and anything else is just an excuse. Lol
    david63, tomjones2, Sleep and 3 others like this.
  9. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    It is one of those topics that lead to others such as the courtesy scratch and having to scratch to win. Those topics can get pretty deep as well.

    The old guy that turned me onto the dogs did not believe in either. Even as a kid I can remember him saying no person ever loaded up their dog, stopped by the bank and left on a long drive thinking tonight is all about having the gamest dog.

    It was either a winning ride home or a losing ride home. One is always longer than the other.


    Elmo Vee, tomjones2, AGK and 2 others like this.
  10. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    Nothing gets under my skin more than needing to explain what S2w is to so called dogmen. Other than why courtesy of a winner is about the dumbest thing lmfao
    tomjones2 and Revelator like this.
  11. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I've never seen the point in scratching to win. One makes his and then it is on the other. He either makes it or not. Then it is over. Doing yours plus one serves no purpose.

    If a dog loses game and the other guy wants to 'show he lost game' I can see giving him a courtesy and if I were on that end I would be happy seeing mine tail scratch.

    Then we get into the 'scratch to continue' which is an another deep dive into what happens on show night. And that is followed by defining gameness.

    From there we will work our way right back around to selling puppies and pushing pedigrees.

    Is it possible to love this shit and hate it at the same time? LOL

  12. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    In theory because never broke a law. I'd turn down every scratch to continue and force the outcome lol. Now by Cajun rules once out of holds are granted this now begins S2w. The problem is that you got these folks thinking S2W is a courtesy scratch made by the wining side.
    tomjones2 and Sleep like this.
  13. Mashamplan

    Mashamplan Big Dog

    By the very term courtesy itself it should be obvious that it's a courtesy granted on request. It has never had an influence on the already established result. But it's TRUE you see guys argue it like it now changes an outcome. Scratch to win is contentious as guys have argued after losing in an agreed on straight cajun show that they agreed on scratch to win. Serious sour grapes and bad losers .
    I've allowed scratch to continue once and then swore never again because the opponent took it as an opportunity to delay conceding on a dog that had no way back and only was gonna get killed. I've never asked for scratch to continue or offered scratch to win. If my dog is still scratching and I can see that continuing will possibly result in its death or I feel its given it's best and it's not coming back to win I concede. I'm an easy spot in that way. I will ask for the courtesy for my dog after conceding occasionally but if it's so badly hurt my first priority is starting aftercare immediately.
    Ssdd, david63, tomjones2 and 5 others like this.
  14. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Once upon a long time ago in a faraway land that allowed such activities I was way out front. There were some hostilities in the air, maybe a hair or so beyond good competition.

    They asked for a scratch to continue. I said I had never heard of such. It was harshly explained to me. I replied, "I am not going to reward you for being behind and I damn sho' ain't gonna punish mine for being in front".

    I was cursed at and called stupid for several minutes in a row. Even the ones in the bleachers were hard on me.

    Even though the outcome was inevitable the extra 6-8 minutes of being taught how the game should be played led to their demise.

    I was the dumbest guy who ever owned a dog and had no business hanging out at their level. They were fastlane dogmen and I was not.

    On the way out this older fellow said something to effect of, "You are one slick white motherfucker". (or in so many words). I think it was compliment in there, regardless, I always took it that way.

    And on the other hand.....

    We went to the mountains of NC once and had our ass handed to us by a bitch that was the roughest cur we had ever seen. We needed five or ten minutes more to see what we thought we were looking at but did not have enough to get another five minutes. Ours got stopped. I don't think she quit but just got physically stopped. (quit vs. stopped is an entire thread to itself, LOL) I then played the role. "You have to scratch to win". "You have to scratch to win" I was hoping against hope trying to save my $3.49 and not have to eat bologna all week.

    In the truest spirit of the dog game I was told, "Go fuck yourself" as they collected their money.

    I can't blame another for trying when I went that route myself. LOL

    tomjones2, Sleep, Ssdd and 1 other person like this.
  15. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    Mash we could definitely be friends lol
    tomjones2 likes this.
  16. Mashamplan

    Mashamplan Big Dog

    Ben I'm honoured you see that as a possibility, in my part of the world, I was not amongst the recognised best that played back then, hell even though I won some against them I lost more than I won into them. I was friends to most but avoided those who sought public recognition in an illegal game.
    Turned down numerous invites to see the regions top ones get shown simply because I believed if I'm not showing, being a second or being the ref I had no business there.
    Always learning by asking and listening. Refuse to share wrong info just to be relevant in the breed. A simple fancier of the breed that has made good friends because of the breed and learnt life lessons (good and bad)from the game.
    I still have contacts close to the game and source my dogs from trusted guys. Just enjoy them with no bogus claims around what they can do because of their peds or their siblings achievements.
    I do believe you and I could be friends.
  17. tomjones2

    tomjones2 Big Dog

    Nice thread gents
  18. New Guy

    New Guy Pup

    I wish I could be Pat Jr friend but he has the NAS Virus
  19. Ssdd

    Ssdd CH Dog

    No worse than catching aids like you....
  20. patjr

    patjr Top Dog

    Ssdd likes this.

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