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School

Discussion in 'Training & Behavior' started by Kahlilrobinson, Feb 21, 2017.

  1. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Partnering always has some taboo attached but the smaller yards who combine work much better. Less dogs keeps one out of the eye of the public and the combine offers the advantages of more dogs.

    Two things happen at the show more times than not, "He never looked like that before". One, he was schooled (actually not schooled) only with like dogs and when he saw something different he reacted differently. Two, he was never put on something better or just as good which is an advantage of a lot of dogs.

    A dog can't be done enough to create muscle memory. He may be done enough to recognize certain situations and react a certain way but that is a mental reaction as he will react in a ton of different ways, angles, twists, turns contorsions to off set the stimuli.

    If I throw a baseball at your face a thousand times you will raise your glove and catch the ball automatically, instinctlly, not to catch the ball but to protect the face. On a thousand one I throw the ball up in the air the muscle memory will bring the glove to your face for a split second but on the way up the mental recognition takes place and you react mentally to a pop fly. Now if I throw a thousand pop flies and your first step is always back, over time the first step back becomes muscle memory. The direction of the second step is mental recognition based on the direction needed to go after the ball and get to the point of the catch.

    If a dog his punched in the nose a thousand times he can have muscle memory to react in a certain way and in a certain direction. Change the angle of the punch in any direction, even pushing or pulling, or shaking, and it is a mental reaction to make the stimuli stop.

    The object of schooling is to offer up several different types of stimuli for mental recognition followed by mental reaction.

    A dog punched in the nose enough to create muscle memory will trigger muscle memory in the owner. Shovel down, foot on top, push with the foot.......repeat.

    S
     
    SOULDOG, Box Bulldog and DISCOIII like this.
  2. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Flirt poles work really nice.
     
    Kahlilrobinson likes this.
  3. I clearly stated only rolling 4 times a year. And i said repeat next year. If u know the body, you know four times is good. To gain muscle memory, use the muzzles. Muscle memory is NOT responding to a bite lol. But its all n the game, everman has his formula
     
  4. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Use of muzzles is a great practice. It work wonders. Two reasons. Most quit due to fatigue followed by frustration. Nothing is more tiring or more frustrating than working really hard with no possible chance of success. It works.

    It does not create muscle memory no matter how many times it is used. It conditions the dog for a response. Pavlov, the Dobermans and the dinner bell thought process.

    On the other had if the second dog that is preparing the first dog can do the exact same thing repeatedly then there is the possibility of creating repeated response to make muscle memory. That will never happen.

    The schooling process is to prepare a dog for what may or may not happen down the road. The repetition needed to create muscle memory in this area is impossible.

    Basically if schooled properly and thoroughly on a late Saturday night the dog will say, "Already seen that".

    S
     
    Box Bulldog and DISCOIII like this.
  5. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    Using muzzles for schooling, WTF???? LMAO
     
    treezpitz and Kahlilrobinson like this.
  6. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    It is very effective.

    S
     
  7. springy

    springy Pup

    I don't have any experience to add to this conversation but it's very interesting to read nonetheless!
     
  8. promoe

    promoe Top Dog

    i could see the use of a muzzle to frustrate one LOL... I bet that's one helluva shitshow watching 2 with muzzles on. if I was a betting man I bet it would turn into who could mount who...and that could lead to one stopping on top or maybe picking up other bad habits.
     
  9. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Is that you Sailor Jerry ? Lol jk
     
  10. promoe

    promoe Top Dog

    lol bama..no SJ tonight although autocorrect makes it look like one is on the sauce at times
     
    bamaman likes this.
  11. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    OTE="promoe, post: 761900, member: 7935"]lol bama..no SJ tonight although autocorrect makes it look like one is on the sauce at times[/QUOTE]
    I caught that shit moe ! Lol
     
  12. SOULDOG

    SOULDOG TEMPLE OF THE DOGS

    A dog can be worked or trained to his or her nuclei wether natural or steroids. Once that point is reached it doesn't go away , hence muscle memory.
     
  13. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    How is this more effective then schooling one without a muzzle, besides the obvious of little to no injuries?
     
  14. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    It is based on the belief that most quit due to fatigue and frustration, and/or frustration from fatigue.

    The muzzled effort can find out how bad they really want it when they can't get it.

    The guy that showed me a number of years ago owned Ch. Tyrone.

    If one will hang it up with a muzzle he will do so without. If he will go and go while muzzled he will do the same without.

    And yes it is less damage and less repair.

    Most who do it use the muzzle for thirty to forty minutes and when they are way tired , take the muzzle off.

    It is most effective when buying grown dogs. One could get three or four rolls in a short period of time using the muzzle. Less repair at the end.

    S
     
    oakgrove, bamaman, bks and 1 other person like this.
  15. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member


    True. But it takes repetitive motions. Dogs will not repeat themselves enough to create muscle memory when allowed to play together.

    S
     
  16. SOULDOG

    SOULDOG TEMPLE OF THE DOGS

    Yes they will and do.:cool:
     
  17. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    It is not repetitive enough. It is not long enough. It does not last long enough.

    If one could get one dog to do the same thing enough times it is possible for the other dog to respond enough in the same manner to develop muscle memory. That simply can't happen with just two dogs, factor in the schooling process of schooling involves three-four-five dogs. Far too many variables to result in muscle memory.

    It is a fine line between muscle memory and mental recognition.

    S
     
    bamaman likes this.
  18. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    Yes most do quit due to fatigue and frustration REGARDLESS if a muzzle is used or not. LOL

    One does not need a muzzle to find out how badly one wants it. LOL

    Hanging it up is hanging it up regardless if one is wearing a muzzle or not....No that is not particularly true as some dogs will go all night if NOT taking any DAMAGE.

    Like I said beside the obvious of little to no damage. LOL

    So basically those who do it are just trying to TIRE OUT a dog for 30-40 minutes before letting him actually engage fully with an opponent regardless if using a muzzle right? In that case one could flirt pole there dog for 30-40 minutes before letting one fully engage there opponent which would be a very similar scenario just using different methods to tire out a dog.

    I cant see how it is more effective when buying grown dogs as opposed to schooling ones own ready for schooling prospects?

    Most of the scenarios you mentioned above seem more like a GAME TEST then SCHOOLING, in which there is a big difference.

    The thing is this if using a muzzle for schooling was very effective like you claim then MAJORITY of all dog men would be using the muzzle as the NORM to school there dogs but that is NOT the case as majority of dogmen do not use muzzles for schooling.
     
    c_note likes this.
  19. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    [Qunde"slim12, post: 761908, member: 3011"]It is based on the belief that most quit due to fatigue and frustration, and/or frustration from fatigue.

    The muzzled effort can find out how bad they really want it when they can't get it.

    The guy that showed me a number of years ago owned Ch. Tyrone.

    If one will hang it up with a muzzle he will do so without. If he will go and go while muzzled he will do the same without.

    And yes it is less damage and less repair.

    Most who do it use the muzzle for thirty to forty minutes and when they are way tired , take the muzzle off.

    It is most effective when buying grown dogs. One could get three or four rolls in a short period of time using the muzzle. Less repair at the end.

    S[/QUOTE]
    I understand what your saying slim.Interesting.
     
  20. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    It would be very similar in theory to flirt poling a dog. I have often ran mine on the mill prior to a lesson.

    The difference being is that a dog being flirted or milled will be stimulated by the interaction with another dog. If he is stimulated by the other dog with a muzzle, and then becomes tired/frustrated a lot can be told.

    It is most effective in schooling and checking older dogs, not so much schooling young dogs. The guy that had Tyrone bought a lot of grown dogs. The muzzle meant he could see them three four times in short period of time and then get some matches still before the dog was too old. The muzzle was used to school and check older dogs.

    S
     
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