belly mate breeding vs half brother to sister breeding.

I'm looking to see the opinion of the real dog men. Which breeding is the best, the belly mate breeding or the half brother to sister breeding on the jeep x redboy x rascal blood.

 

"best" is a variant more just a opinion left up to the individual. the only " dog man" who has any real opinion on thi topic is the breeder of your dog. there's lots of possible outcomes following the rules of genetics. the factors that will play the biggest is the man behind the dog.

 

I am with slim on this one. If the stud or gyp you are trying to line from isnt throwing its traits into its offspring then it dosent matter if its belly mate breeding or half sibling breeding.

 

Ok this is how it is. The brother to sister breeding is throwing alot of mouth and ability and the whole litter is hot but they are lacking on gameness. But the half brother to sister breeding r all game plugs with about a 6 mouth straight ahead dumb dogs. So how can i intensify this breeding.

 

What about fake dog men?

 

"It is hard to make chicken shit out of chicken salad"

Not really, Just feed the chicken salad to chickens and wait about one day...

 

Not a lot of information given about the quality of the parents. For me i would look at the overall quality of the female and ascertain what my objective is. It seems you are trying to create either a family of dogs or save on a stud fee. I can't be sure.

If the female is quality and well bred and you have tried both of these options and neither have been ideal. I would look for a male as slim suggested, something related to her that is talented and game and a proven producer and breed him to the female and skip a whole generation of raising loads of pups to maybe end up with some good dogs.

Better to find out early if your female has the ability to throw quality pups. Paying a stud fee for a good proven dog however expensive is way cheaper in the long run. Also it will give you more choices to create your family later on based on the litter you created and half brothers,sisters from the quality male.

 

I agree with TDK. If all you're gettin is plugs and curs, time to start over. If my dogs all share something, a parent, and lack something, talent and gameness, I would look for more options. There are a lot of dogs out there, there is only so much time and money. I wasted 3 years myself, I don't want to count the money....

 

What would you do if you had a really tight imbred skiddish chicken shit dog that produced his ass off. Would you still feed the bum if he could produce great chicken salad?

 

If the half bro half sis breeding are out of high quality dogs they could still produce but an outcross is probably the way to go. You are more likely to get talent and air and mouth and heart with and outcross. Also my own experience with jeep/redboy/rascal stuff was that it didn't line breed or inbreed well at all. You would always lost a lot with every gen when inbreeding that stuff. but if outcrossed you would get some real good dogs, much better than the parents...

Although getting different dogs is a good suggestion, who is to say what you get next will be even as good. I have seen many people that switch and swap hounds like underwear and don't change their success ratio. There are a lot of lessons in keeping your stuff and just adding what is not there. Through time and experience you will slowly but surely improve your dogs.

 

Id take the goose made of shit but lay golden eggs.over the golden goose that just shit.

 

There isn't answer for which is "best." The two types of breedings have different purposes.

Generally speaking, inbreeding (your example of bellymate breeding) is done with the hopes of increasing desirable characteristics/traits. The offspring have a greater chance of inheriting those desirable (and undesirable also) traits.

Your second example (half brother/sister breeding) involves inbreeding on one grandparent with an out-cross. Therefore, it brings in different traits/characteristics from the out-cross while maintaing some of the desired traits from the one grandparent.

I believe both types of breedings are necessary and can benefit a program/yard. Niether is better than the other. They both serve a purpose.

~Mr Mark

 

In the past breeders who had good littermate individuals and knew the gene pool in there and disided to make a brother sister breeding . where not discoraged when they ended up with a litter of curs.
If they had the time and space on there hands they had no problem to repeat the breeding for a second iven 3 time!!. As they KNEW the foundation of the parends where sound. And if you would repeat breed the combination again these genes had to come out sometime!!!.
It was also known that brother x sister breeding had a lesser % rate as inbreeding father to daughter and son to mother. hens you did not see a lot of brother sister breedings.
dont ask me why, But thats what we learned back then and wat was practised.
Most of us who are breeding a couple of decades, are aware and saw superb litters being produced. and when these breedings where repeated the results were not always to right home about!!.
Now i wont sirguest anything. but a single producing failer of a litter thussend nesersarely means that the outcome of this particulair breeding is a bad gene pool. sure the>cur< individuals are useless... But if there is faight in that combiantion i would repeat it...

when it comes to Line breeding halve brother x halve sister . you have a greater chanse of having lots of hybrid viger. teoreticly there is more variation in these litters. Depending if the individuals where you breed of are loose bred ore resenable tight bred dogs. Breeding for performance dogs line breeding is beter then inbreeding thats a no brainer. and inbreeding should only been done when you whant to lock on a outstanding individual. To many people today fall in the pure trap.
They think breeding pure ore tight is better. But if you askt them why they are inbreeding they have no cleu.
my advice stick with the line breeding... forget the inbreeding..

 

First and foremost I should emphasise that line breeding is the cornerstone of selective breeding. Selective breeding has given us cows that give the maximum amount of milk, sheep that give the maximum amount of wool, chickens that lay eggs almost every day and the most beautiful dogs in the world. There is nothing wrong with line breeding but it is like using a satellite navigation device – if it is not used intelligently you land up in Richmond, North Yorkshire when you intended to go to Richmond in London! If you are to use line breeding intelligently you have to know the basics. I hope that this short article will help.

What are inbreeding and line breeding, and what effect do they have?

In genetic terminology, inbreeding is the mating of two animals who are related to each other. In its opposite, out crossing, the two parents are totally unrelated. Since all pure breeds of animal (including humans) trace back to a relatively limited number of foundation ancestors, all pure breeding is, by this definition, inbreeding though the term is not generally used to refer to matings where a common ancestor does not occur within a five-generation pedigree.

Breeders of purebred livestock have introduced the term ‘line breeding’, to cover the milder forms of inbreeding. Exactly what the difference is between line breeding and inbreeding tends to be defined differently for each species for there is no ‘formal’ definition. Inbreeding at its closest applies to what would be considered incest in human beings – parent to offspring or a mating between full siblings. However, uncle-niece, aunt-nephew, half sibling matings, and first cousin matings are called inbreeding by some people and line breeding by others. Under normal circumstances if this was the only example of close breeding in a five-generation pedigree what is called the ‘inbreeding coefficient’, expressed as a percentage, would be so low as not to be significant. But three things need to be taken into account. The closer this relationship is to the first generation of the pedigree, the more often it occurs and the relationships of the other sires and dams in the pedigree all result in an increased percentage.

What does inbreeding (in the genetic sense) do? Basically, it increases the probability that the two copies of any given gene will be identical and derived from the same ancestor. The higher the inbreeding coefficient the more likely this is to happen. The technical term is ‘homozygous’ for that gene. The ‘heterozygous’ animal has some differences in the two copies of the gene. Remember that each animal (or plant, for that matter) has two copies of any given gene (two alleles at each locus, if you want to get technical), one derived from the father and one from the mother. If the father and mother are related, there is a chance that the two genes in the offspring are both identical copies contributed by the common ancestor.

This is neither good nor bad in itself – but consider, for instance, the gene for PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy), which causes progressive blindness. Carriers have normal vision, but statistically, if one is mated to another carrier it is likely that one in four of the puppies will have PRA and go blind. Inbreeding will increase both the number of affected dogs (1 in 4) and the number of genetically normal dogs (3 in 4) so inbreeding can thus bring these undesirable recessive genes to the surface, where they could be removed from the breeding pool – you do not breed from the dogs which go blind – although a proportion of other dogs in the litter will be carriers.This will only matter if they are mated to another carrier, of course, but it demonstrates the complexity of the problems

Unfortunately, it is still much more complicated for we cannot breed animals based on a single gene – the genes come as just two packages: one in the sperm and one in the egg. So you may be able to eliminate one undesirable pair but the very fact that the animals will be becoming increasingly homozygous (which may quickly improve some characteristics) is also likely to bring other undesirable combinations to the surface.

Sewell Wright developed what is called the ‘inbreeding coefficient’ in the 1920s. This is related to the probability that both copies of any given gene are derived from the same ancestor. A total outcross (in dogs, probably a first-generation cross between two purebreds of different, unrelated breeds would be the best approximation) would have an inbreeding coefficient of 0. As we have seen, they would still have common ancestors many generation back so would still be homozygous for somegenes shared by all dogs so even though the inbreeding coefficient = 0 even matings between unrelated pairs can still throw up genetic disease.

An inbreeding coefficient of 100% is rare in mammals and would result if the only matings practiced over many generations were between full brother and full sister. A mating between a brother and sister from unrelated parents would result in an inbreeding coefficient of 50%. A mother/son (or vice versa) or father/daughter (or vice versa) mating would result in a breeding coefficient of 25% assuming that there were no other related matings in the preceding generations. A cousin-to-cousin mating actually gives a relatively low percentage (6.25) but other related matings would affect this figure – perhaps substantially. However, Dr Malcolm Willis, one of the most experienced geneticists in the world of dogs, has said that the average inbreeding coefficient in pedigree dogs registered with the Kennel Club is actually only between 4 and 5% but, of course, the long term effect of many generations of a breed on the same register will mean that today’s dogs do have a higher chance of passing on deleterious genes simply because, as explained at the beginning of this article, there were relatively limited number of foundation ancestors.

As a general rule, very close inbreeding in domestic animals cannot be maintained for many generations because it generally results in loss of fertility – apart from any other genetic disease which may become apparent. .

To ensure genetic health breeders need to select pairs in such a way that the inbreeding coefficient of the offspring is kept as low as possible commensurate with the adherence of stock to the breed standard.One way of doing this is to use the method often adopted in other countries: that is breed from animals which ‘look’ the same (heterozygous) as distinct from what we tend to do in the UK which is to breed from animals which are genetically similar (homozygous).

Another key is to constantly move away from families known for possessing deleterious genes – a method practiced by knowledgeable dog breeders for generations.

You can download a programme from the Internet called GENEs which was written by Dr Robert Lacy which will enable you to calculate the inbreeding coefficient of any mating (assuming you have the full five generation pedigree) quite easily. The programme is free but has some restrictions. Go to GENES software page to download it