Are we all a bunch of hypocrits?

You're asking these questions as if there are cut and dry rules to the shit. Like there is a dogman committee that votes and decides what is okay and what is not okay to do and then the rest of the club follows suit. This is probably true with some breeds that have certain clubs and rules for the members that keep dogs to certain standards. But when the only standard is winning, the other shit is just the other shit. We're talking about individuals... just about every dogman does things different and has a different philosophy. Some breed man eaters, some cull them... who ever said either one was the right thing to do? Who made that rule? the dogman committee right?

 

Well, I get what Benthere meant,.........I also get how his statement is usually understood; and that understanding is incorrect and misleading. Without the usual explanation,...I'll say this. The problems didn't start in the 1970's and didn't all happen in the general public.

Look at it this way,....folks didn't wake up one day in 1970 and decide to ban dog-fighting and literally make a federal case out of it.

Opposition had been growing for a long while. That's why some registries did as they did...why some folks behaved as they did,...and why some of the splintering within the community occured...name changing,....and revising of breed history started to occur.

Then, as now,....there were people and incidents that brought heat and shame to the game. Then, as now, accidents, ignorance, and in some cases stubborn refusal to deal with reality, helped paint people and dogs in the breed with the same negative brush and get laws passed against dog-fighters and fighting dogs in particular,...the breed in general.

As with anything being forbidden,...the allure of having "fighting dogs"/being involved with dog fighting increased and many more people than had even known about the breed before just had to have them. This is the point in history that most of us know about/were around for and that keeps getting discussed as the beginning of the Bulldog apocolypse. It wasn't. That started happening decades earlier,...if you look through some of the old bills and posters and correspendence you'll see that the famous boxers stopped wanting to be seen with the gladiator dogs,...the famous actors/celebrities were no longer openly attending the conventions....regardless of where they were,....folks who bred and were deeply into dogs at night,....weren't so open about their involvement during the day with their business partners/clients,....research and see for yourself.

Revising history....... yes, our is a heroic breed,...at least I think so. But, what I mean by revising breed history is as follows,........
for instance,...to this day, you have some AKC people that will stand on their heads and swear up and down that their dogs are directly descended from "ratters".....not UKC registered and sponsered fighting dogs.
Also, during very dark times in recent breed history,..where BSL really started taking hold, some lovers of the breed wrote well-known books, in well'known magazines etc...and told stories of the breed that were as Benthere puts it,..."sugar coated." In a lot of these sugar-coated tales,...a manbiter was never bred, they were all stable family dogs,...everybody from Helen Keller to the Pope had two,.........out of this came the "it's all how you raise them" movement. This, to me was even more problematic than the wannabe-show offs that had gotten the breed before.....at least the wannabes had a more honest idea of what they were dealing with and could therefore contain/control better. The "its all how you raise them" folks jumped in with eyes wide shut,...and just could not accept that some dogs are just fucked-up and too much for most to handle,...regardless of hos much you love/socialize and let them watch tv on your couch.

Anyway, I have to stop here for now,....food's on the table and my wife's getting boisterous,....but, like i said,...find some of the old folks with the old stories and pictures and see how the scene changed over the first half of the 20th century...and how the laws changed with them.....Merry Christmas.

 

Well,.....there definitely is that..............but, let's just say that some are already so broke when they're born,...there is no fixing them. I've had shy ones work out. More truthfully,...one of the best I had was the slightly "shy" offspring of a tail-tucking shy dam and an aloof, but stable, sire. My biggest disappointments came out of a shy mother,....and a sire that could be compared to the type you talked about a couple of posts earlier.........extremely shy, but not at the office. The instability/unpredictability just went too deep that time around. Anyhow, I should have known better,....I did actually,....but, sometimes we all think we're miracle workers ;-).

 

There are A LOT of controversial topics in this 1 thread. many are and can only be based on personal and individual opinion such as the stimulation stuff. me personally, find that a dog is better well rounded when socialized and talked to consistently, taken on walks through various environments and introduced to as much as the world as possible. they turn out to be smarter, easier to handle, & has a closer bond to me then the always chained dogs.

as far as shyness, that is purely NATURE VS NURTURE subject. any dog can change on its own or thru good socialization, but if u get a puppy that u soon realize to be incredibly fearful(dealing with all the points everyone mentioned of being shy) then why the hell would u keep it? yeah it might produce a champion or rom dog but im not going to spend all that money on such a high risk gamble.

i totally agree with benthere on the point he's trying to make on what a pitbull is. first comes game then temperament. if its the other way around then ill get a labrador & hope it'll have the drive i need/want. Another thing is that gameness which is what was bred into these dogs for idk how long is based on 1 thing. ferociousness and will power. that is was what makes the apbt do what it does. the unyeilding will to kill. i wasnt there at the beginning but its just common sense of which dogs were selected. people werent as intelligent as we are now so im pretty sure the best fighting dogs were chosen first by aggressiveness and then later on by more stable minded dogs to work with in society. inbreeding produces some man biters, everyone knows that, but in the beginning i bet that the great dogs just as in the colby case were literally ferocious animals. yeah, they might not have bitten john himself or HIS kids but others were welcome to get it.

before everyone starts jumping on me, please think logically about that. a simple minded dog isnt going to understand rules that they should ONLY fight other dogs and way back in those days peoples morals and understanding of a lot of things were only half as complete as now. especially genetics, breeding, and animal behavior. just 40 yrs before that, black ppl werent considered ppl but animals/ property.

understanding & experience also plays a huge role with these dogs. i dnt have kids so that isnt a concern to me, but if i have a real game dog that i cant train out of biting at a stranger than so be it...BUTTT i have the knowledge and experience how to keep that dog without any crazy accidents and the media ruining it for all my fellow dogmen. if you have an unstable dog that will eat u then yeah put it dwn but as far as that protective trait or that drive to hit anything (EXCEPT children which i firmly raise my dogs out of) that i want him to then thats okay. because that is the pitbull's nature. they are indeed soldiers, ready to go to war against any opposition of their king which is u, with undying love and genetically altered physical and mental abilities that supercede other dogs

 

There's a lot here to argue with,................just let me say that inbreeding, in iteslf, doesn't produce manbiters; inbreeding on manbiters can. There's a difference. Since we're trying to have the no-bullshit-spreading/sugar-coating thread here,....let's be clear and fair.

 

You and yours have a safe and happy holiday, Saiy,......take care of yourself,...we'll pick this nonsense back up next year.

 

Hi there!

Might add some:

Proper socialization and education to me is not sugar coating the breed!
It helps a lot to lesser the chances for accidents and make it more comfortable to deal with the dog!

There´s no need to sugarcoat the breed as I seriously think you shouldn´t sugar coat any kind of (working) dog!

They are predators and they are animals with a own sense their own understanding of the world and boatloads of drives of various kinds, but investing time to know how your dogs click and to make him used to most of the cirsumstances that occur in your daily bussines is of much importance!

Simply as that aswell as the other points, glad to see that there are some that discuss openly, sad to see that there are some that want to troll the thread or going into personla attacks as they can´t contribute in a proper way!

 

without question, there's hypocrisy surrounding this breed.
regarding most things: humans have been saying one thing and doing another since forever. it is what it is. we are what we are.

as far as this statement:
"Wouldn´t these written down facts weaken our statements in defending the breed?" not sure i'd classify all the spoken and written opinions i read concerning the breed to be facts, tho. they're just the author's/person's POV. what one person can and chooses to handle, another will not. HA is not always all about genetics. environmental conditions also play a large role in a dog's behaviorial tendencies. if you can handle a HA dog, hell good for you. and good luck. but, no doubt you won't "report" your own dog bite. unquestionably a steady temperment would be ideal, but it's all about choices. 'one man's trash is another man's treasure'.
people also have varying opinions on ethics which is whay it's important to 'do your homework' and buy from someone reputable. if not, fault yourself.

it's not in just the dog world, that people are a dissembling bunch.

 

thats not true

 

Excellent point!

 

The fastest race horse doesn't get recognition and breeding rights because he nuzzles his jockey ever so gently and whinnys for a sugar cube.. just saying....

 

I think this is the most important thing to remember in this whole thread.People may have used these dogs for pets and or other types of work in the past and present.But I believe that most of the breeding was still done by dogmen in the past as opposed to show/bully type breeders (untested stock)that we see today.Since gameness creates a more stable and confident animals in general (not saying there weren't a few exceptions).Then dogs from tested stock were more people friendly and stable then dogs from untested show or pet stock.Therefore when the laws made it harder to test the quality of stock.It also made it harder to control the quality of the offspring leading to less stable dogs from untested stock.And as far as socialization goes, I believe in spending time with a dog but it's still a dog.They don't need to be in the house sleeping on my bed to be happy.

 

would you rather have a pretty mantle piece that is a great people dog with no gameness or a dog that is deep in game and might grab your ass if you get caught slippin? i would take the chance myself. dont get me wrong id love for every gamegod to be people perfect but thats not gonna happen. it is a risk of having a combat dog.

 

that is simply not true, now i am not saying i would have culled him, if i could deal with him and he did not go after me i probably would not care but to tella man who would have culled him he is no bulldogman is ridculous i might simply not tolerate it this does not mean when you are across from me ur gonna win

 

dogs crave human interaction i am not saying that you nrrd to spend every second of every day with them but if uve ever had a house dog u can see they want to spend a good amount of time with u. just because the majority if ppl inly interact by feeding and watering dont make there way right. it is not a coincidence that many of the greatest dog where favored and were usually house dogs, and if not house dogs they were payed special attention to

 

i agree with you that a cur wiull not turn game because of bonding but a dog who is bonded with his owner, will respond much better wo his owner than a stranger. and when the men who owned dogs like virgil and bolero tell me that bonding makes a world of difference then i am iinclined to take there advice .. then take into acount when men like earl tudor and colby say house dogs tend to be smarter and more all around better dogs you gott to take that into acount. look at dogs like tornado zebo, two eyes, mayday, centipede the history books are literally filled with some a lot of the greatest dgs getting that extra attention from a pup to adult hood to me that is not a coincidence

 

there were plenty more of dogs than just a handfull if you no the history of the majority of the great ones you will see most of those dogs were poampered and hand raised and most actually spent time inside and outside the house as well read my post before this. and no i can not give you a ton off hand but beleive me there were many

 

Like I said do what ever makes you feel good, but no amount of attention is going to make a dog smart, bite hard, wrestle good and damn sure won't make them game. Do you think bolero bit hard cause she spent time inside or because she was bred to do so. If hand raising made good dogs I would have had the best in the country, but it wasn't so. The smartest I have ever owned spent the first three years on a chain with little attention. He is smart because he had smart dogs in his pedigree. If it is not there to start with you, me or Earl Tudor ain't going to be able to put it in there. It makes good story telling man and dog sharing some special unspoken bond that makes the dog go places and do things he normally wouldn't do. It is a better story than saying they were bred to do what they did.

 

thats your opinion and thats fine, and yes these dogs have it in them but like many have said give those great dogs to a fucking idiot and they would have amounted to nothing, a dog who is exercised on the regular and fed the best food and has the best care will out do his comp most of the time if he is a good dog, take that same dog feed him garbage never take him off the chain and keep him unhealthy and he will never do what was in his genetics

 

very much agree.