The Million Dollar Question

gameness is the lack of a gene, or certain gene's........
lack of the gene/gene's that causes the dog to leave a fight to save his own life. all animals have it, but in some apbt's it is not present.
breeders have always bred to retain certain gene's, but what if now they bred for lack of a certain gene????
the big question is how???:eek:

 

IMO gameness is just as C-Murda said it was. It's a certain blend or mix of 2 or more genes that do two things. First it hightens the dogs desire to dominate, and second it supresses the dogs natural flight instincts to survive.

Why should we only breed to game dogs? Because a game dog will carry that particular blend of genes that make it game and is more likely to pass that down to its offspring than one that does not have the blend. Breeding only dogs that posses that certain mix of genes that make them game improves the chances of that mix being passed down and although there have been exceptions they are few and far between compared to the average.

One of the most important things in breeding a family of dogs that has a high percentage of game individuals is that they in fact be family bred dogs or "pure" of a family. This is because by breeding a family we are reducing variation within them with each generation whereas when we outcross we are introducing variation in to the gene pool. Selection is a process whereby we diminish the gene pool more and more with each generation, discarding the "bad" traits and strengthening the "good" traits.

Although it is much more complicated than this, we can think of breeding and selection as a lottery where we pick out balls from a bag. Lets say that the dog is the bag and within it there are black balls and white balls. Consider that the balls are the genes, all white balls means gameness and a black ball means a cur. When we breed we are essentially pulling out those balls randomly from the bag. The selection process entails finding those bags that have black balls in them and discarding them, only keeping the bags with white balls and throwing those white balls back into the bag. As each generation passes the selection process should cause there to be more bags with all white balls than the last, thereby increasing the possibility of getting more bags with only white balls in them. After a certain number of generations have passed the selection process there should be a greater number of white balls than black ones, thereby increasing the odds of getting only white balls in a bag.

Of course as I stated before this is a very simplified way of looking at it and it is much more complicated in reality but that's the theory behind selection and the reason we should only breed to game dogs.

I would like to point out that this method of breeding is what created the breed we have today and if we alter that technique then we will also alter the breed. Just because a method is old does not mean it's not correct, just the opposite in fact. By using the original old methods we are assuring that we will maintain the original standards that made the breed what it is.

Remember,, gamedogs come from gamedogs.

 

who did write that gringopistolero ? ive read that before somewhere:confused:

 

I honestly don't know who wrote that Behavin but it is just some basic molecular biology/genetics and I believe it is taught at the first level in all schools. In this case it is related to our dogs and their traits but when I learned it, it was used to explain evolutionary descendence.
As I said though, this is an extremely simplified way to put it and in reality it's much much more complicated than all this as it involves locii and dominant/recessive traits that also play a large role. But it serves to show why a selection process is so important in any breeding program of any animal, not just dogs.
I'll look through my old college books and see if I can find exactly where it is for you and the author. They explained it alot better than I did and it should make this topic very clear to anyone interested in it.

P.S. when I learned it we were dealing with fruit flies, that much I remember.

 

Hmmm, very interesting thread and some great responses too, I might add.

Is gameness a gene? Man oh man, great question! Well...let's break it down:

Part I: What exactly is gameness? What does not quitting "really" mean?

Ans: let me just brainstorm a little...determination, desire, willingness, perseverance, persistance, tenacity, passion...okay that's enough for this argument!

{*What is extremely interesting is the defination on dictionary.com of the word preseverance, check it out:

–noun
1.
<TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dnindex width=35></TD><TD>steady persistence in a course of action, a purpose, a state, etc., esp. in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Now read this (I bolded certain words that I thought was interesting):

Synonyms:
1.doggedness, steadfastness. Perseverance, persistence, tenacity, pertinacity imply resolute and unyielding holding on in following a course of action. Perseverance commonly suggests activity maintained in spite of difficulties or steadfast and long-continued application: Endurance and perseverance combined to win in the end. It is regularly used in a favorable sense. Persistence, which may be used in either a favorable or an unfavorable sense, implies unremitting (and sometimes annoying) perseverance: persistence in a belief; persistence in talking when others wish to study. Tenacity, with the original meaning of adhesiveness, as of glue, is a dogged and determined holding on. Whether used literally or figuratively it has favorable implications: a bulldog quality of tenacity;

I mean, shit, if that's not the description of gameness than I don't know what is, lol.}

Part II: Are the "traits/characteristics" I just named genetic or not?

Ans: Oh boy, now this is the hard one to answer! Genetics are very, very confusing. We have phenotypes and genotypes. What's the difference?

Lets refer back to the dictionary, lol:

{Phenotype
–noun Genetics.
<TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dnindex width=35>1.</TD><TD>the observable constitution of an organism.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dnindex width=35>2.</TD><TD>the appearance of an organism resulting from the interaction of the genotype and the environment.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Genotype
–noun Genetics. <TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dnindex width=35>1.</TD><TD>the genetic makeup of an organism or group of organisms with reference to a single trait, set of traits, or an entire complex of traits.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dnindex width=35>2.</TD><TD>the sum total of genes transmitted from parent to offspring.}</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Okay, so after reading the definitions, we find in genotype, the word traits! Therfore, based on this I would have to argue that GAMENESS (the traits that make it what it is) IS GENETIC.

* I believe that after several decades and centuries of selectively breeding for this trait that it is proof of it. I believe that there is more to it than just this, as many of you alluded to, but to answer the OP's question this is my input!

**I will also add that I definately do not believe dominance has anything to do with gameness. Dominance is something totally different and as a matter of fact, many dominant dogs quit on top once they feel they have dominated.

 

Here's an interesting read on preseverance (found it on a google search). According to this preseverance may not be genetic:

1. Perseverance is a personality trait. If personality is compounded by two large dimensions, such as temperament (mostly genetic) and character (mostly constructed by environment, education and experience), then perseverence belong to the last one. All these mean perseverance is a quality you can acquire, build and improve anytime. Let’s assume that there is nobody who totally lacks it, but there are a lot of us who aren’t concerned about it or don’t develop it to its full potential. The good news is that this trait is in the range of human control, that you can improve it and benefit it.

2. Perseverance is a habit: the habit of keep trying when others give up, of staying when difficulty arise, the habit to endure while doing something that your immediate wish is to quit. We also can see it as the ability to steady pursue a goal, as the capacity to keep working toward an objective, especially when the path to the end is hard. It is the skill to stay at a difficult task.

3. Perseverance is a choice, before you choused to persevere, you was in the face of either/or, either fly or persevere. This option is needed in such situations as goal achievement or dealing with adversity, it must be called forth when there is a goal to achieve or a tough context in your life.

4. Perseverance requires you to center your attention on what is in your power to do, on what is in your control and let aside what is out of your influence. When you are doing something, there are things that can be done and influenced by you, but also things that are outside your control (chance, etc.), concentrate on first and ignore the last ones. Perserverance also requires diligence, strong will, patience and commitment to endure.

5. You can take this omnipotent factor as a twofold investment: an investment in yourself, because when you persevere in doing something to the end, despite the difficulties and toughness of a task, you will acquire a powerful habit; and an investment in a valuable activity and result, any activity is like a business, it requires a good investment in order to produce a valuable result.

6. Perseverance isn’t always constructive and can be harmful in some situations; this happens when it is overdone and when people stick to plans that evidence show there is a very small probability to succeed. In this case, it isn’t an intelligent and wise perseverance, but a foolish one that makes you persevere when there is clear evidence that a certain activity can’t bring a positive result. It can’t be even named perseverence, but blind stubbornness. You have to stop when trying-over-and-over-again becomes harmful for your well-being. Yet persistence is the key to success, you have to be aware and know when to stop. Successful people don’t try a few times (don’t make just a few sales calls, but many) and then abandon, but keep trying until the light of success begin to show little by little, because rejections don’t discourage them. But there are limits that endurance alone can not surpass. Perseverance isn’t a universal solution; it may be maladaptive when you persistently cling to a wishful hope when there is information that your hope isn’t based on facts and reality. Perseverance is not a purpose in itself and it isn’t precious as a kind of long and unproductive suffering, even if this practice of a painful patience may form a strong determination in you.

7. Where perseverance comes from? It is a question that can’t be straight answered. What is sure is that perseverance is strong linked to optimism (because it finds the good in the worst of all situations), to the hope that in the end the effort will be rewarded with a great result. What motivates you to persevere in a task is the mental image of the final result and so we can say that persistence is strong connected to your motivation, it is in fact a motivational factor. It happens when you feel strong in the face of difficulty. You can take it as a quiet strength that keeps you on the task from the start to the finish, no matter how long it takes to achieve it.

8. But after answered the question What is perseverance?, someone still can ask me: Why is perseverance so important? Why can’t we give it up? To these questions I’ll answer: because it is omnipotent. The man who acquire and improve it to its highest level can do everything he humanly wants. If God made these all by His omnipotent power, you can do what you want to do by the omnipotent perseverance and will.

“Perseverance is the hard work you do after you get tired of doing the hard work you already did.” Newt Gingrich

“Perseverance is not a long race; it is many short races one after another.” Walter Elliott
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Hope you don't mind, I brought this over to peds just to see what some over there have to say about it!

 

i just thought id bring this over here, as i see this being of interest to people on this subject.

http://www.game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22549&page=2
from post #29.....

 

Bumpity Bump Bump

 

Bump Bump...

 

Bravo, good stuff Line breeding a family of dogs that are game will not only produce a higher number of game dogs but will establish a platform on which you could now seek other wining traits.

 

if game is a gene then what gene is it?

 

Gameness is against evolution. Every animal's instincts tell them to run from a situation when they're up against it. You have to find that one individual who will stand and fight. It's an individual thing. Some dogs just have that mentality that they're going to die today and they're going to go out like a soldier.

 

Nice thread

 

One very controversial matter

 

lee's or levi's??

 

Wrangler dog wrangler a dog has good genes somebody tries to steal it. lol

 

No. I get a million dollar now?