What does ADBA really think of UKC dogs

I think this question kind of gets at the heart of the issue here:

Suppose you have a litter of pups out of So and So's Rex 2xW and Ch. Somebody Else's Bad Bitch. You take the best looking ones of the bunch with no regard to what they are capable of and breed them together. Are the offspring no longer true APBT? If they are, how many more such generations would it take before they aren't? There is a difference between a Staff and an unproven APBT...

 

on the ukc vs ameican bully issue i dnt think ther should b an issue they r seperate breeds american bully n amstaff n u got appbt all diff breeds n should b thought of as such

 

lets go one further- look at the modern era dogs. if you put ears on the modern winning UKC dogs- its THOSE dogs that look like the box dogs of the 50's- 70's, not todays ADBA dogs.
back then there was no desire for a tuck, etc. like you see in todays winning ADBA dogs.
form over function.
and now the winning dogs have the look of what we would ~expect~ a performance dog to look like.


look at most of the greats- pretty plain looking, not much that jumps out and grabs ya. hell, most of them looked like they were mixed breed for crying out loud. all this about looks and who its registered with is downright silly.


( mind you im talking about AmStaffs and APBT's, not Am Bullies)

 

That is one thing that indicates that you still have a strong working breed - non-uniform appearance. The same is true of working huskies and malamutes - they don't all look like they came out of the same cookie cutter either. Of course certain lines have their own look, but the breed(APBT) should still have a diverse appearance. There have been great dogs of all shapes and sizes.

 

a great question....that i hope someone has an answer for.

 

What question? Do you mean why do we look for that now when we didn't before?

 

:confused: what question? it was merely an observation

 

I have seen a few UKC dogs that are definitely APBTs.

However, I have seen more UKC dogs that a most Amstaff than anything else.

Gaff is an Amstaff bloodline, if I remember correctly.

 

"Good dogs are where you find them..."

Tho I personally prefer the ADBA "look"....

 

I got the impression this thread was about APBT and Amstaffs -genetically, since UKC registers genetical Amstaffs as pitbulls. I thought that was obvious.
Perhaps I´m wrong and the thread is about the criterias for breeding pitbulls.

This is easy, no one have to have any special opinions or feel so and so;
if the dog has amstaff bloodlines in the background it is a not a pitbull. That,s it. It ought to be beyond discussion.

if it is a pure bred APBT or an amstaff/mix -genetically, that is easy to see in the pedigree. You can also make yourself an opinion about how the dog is bred, if you know anything about the dogs in the pedigree and out of which critera they are bred. If you don´t know anything about the dogs in the pedigree, it won´t help you. Then there are no reasons to buy a pup after dogs you don´t even know if they are pure bred or not, no matter how the "look" are.

but then how a real pitbull should be bred... that is another thing.

 

First off, there is nothing you can teach me and after 40+ years of UKC registered dogs you are not to tell me crap about my grand champions and champions!

If you want to promote the APBT for something illegal then that is on you because image is everything nowadays.

If only knew half what you think you do you know that.

Here it is, AmStaff have more difference then what breeding purpose are for.
There are 2 different breeds!

<TABLE class=forumline border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=row1 vAlign=top width=150 align=left>D.M. Norrod



Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 643
Location: IN.


</TD><TD class=row1 height=28 vAlign=top width="100%"><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD width="100%">Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: Difference between the APBT, AST and SBT.</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>American Pit Bull Terrier aka APBT,
American Staffordshire Terrier aka AST and
Staffordshire Bull Terrier aka SBT.

I will start with SBT.
The SBT is suppose to be a direct descendant from the dogs from the county of Staffordshire England.
Over the years the conformation and temperament breeding standards have change.
The size has been change to a standard of a smaller breed and the instinctive traits of gameness have been bred out of the breed.

The dogs from the county of Staffordshire was only one of many breeds of dogs which help create the APBT.
IF there was terrier bred into these dogs this is the only known breed, which helps make up the APBT, makes any reference to it.

Since the SBT wasn't recognized as a pure breed by the Kennel Club of England until 1935, it is hard to make the claim this is the same breed or standard of the breed, which was brought over from England and was used in help making the APBT.

The APBT has been known to be in the U.S. as early as the late 1700's.
Many well known matches were advertised in public papers in the middle 1800's
APBT was recognized as a pure breed by UKC in 1898.
The APBT was recognized as a pure breed for 38 years, almost 4 decades before the SBT was recognized as a pure breed.
If anything, one must question if there might have been APBT bred into the SBT to help standardize the breed for recognition.
So at best, the claim would have to be, they are distance cousin breeds, but clearly are and always have been, two different breeds and APBT didn't evolve from the known SBT.

In 1936 the Staffordshire Terrier was recognized as a pure breed by AKC.
In 1972 the name was changed to American Staffordshire Terrier so it wasn't confused with its cousin the SBT.
During this time animal cruelty laws were being passed into law.
Books like Beautiful Joe, Beautiful Joe's Paradise, Punch the Cruisin Dog and Just Happy were wrote about dogs saved from Pit Fighting.
AKC believed it wasn't in the best interest of the breed to have the name (pit) included into the name.
Precedent has always been for AKC to follow the lead of the Kennel Club of England, thus by doing so, again the name took reference to an area of English descent.
The name American Bull Terrier and Yankee Terrier was also denied.
By doing this, they also only wanted dogs who had the looks and characteristics of the dogs from the county of Staffordshire or of Great Britain.
The language of the land is English and England has always been credited for everything being founded and descended from, for the whole United States..
Some of the members of the AKC Staffordshire Terrier club didn't want certain strains from the breed of the APBT.
This is why the standard of the AST excludes red nose, liver colored dogs or black and tan dogs.
Some have questioned whether or not racism didn't play a part in eliminating these strains. Red nose was known to be from Ireland and even today Great Britain and Ireland still don't see eye to eye, like with Northern Ireland, and also during the 30's was the raise of the German power of Hitler. Black and Tan bulldogs were believed to trace back into the Germanic Mastiff.
This helped exclude the complete spectrum of the APBT and only focused on a limited fraction of the breed.
The look was one of brindle and white black nose or white with black brindle cow patch colors.
The one which almost all the strain was converted over to AST was the dogs from the strain of the Blue Pauls aka Blue Paulies, another strain from (Scotland) Great Britain.
Very few blue colored dogs today are from the straight bred APBT bloodlines.
Look far enough back into their pedigrees and you find dogs registered and bred to the standard of the AST.
If you read the old Bloodlines Journals published by UKC, their policy was to bar anyone who would try and dual register their dogs both UKC and AKC.

One of the founding members of the AST was John P. Colby.
John P. Colby was known not for using UKC, for whatever reasons.
As late as the 1950's, dogs like Colby's Dime wasn't UKC Purple Ribbon registered.
ADBA was known basically as a private registry for Colby dogs.
A Colby dog was almost used as standard for AST and if that dog was used,
then the standard would have included undershot dogs, so it was claimed.
The first 9 dogs weren't from UKC registration.
It is believe these from ADBA registration.
The 10th dog was none other then the famous Petie of the Little Rascals aka Our Gang. Petie was the first UKC registered American (pit) Bull Terrier registered with AKC as an AST.

It is a known fact AST evolved from the APBT.
Question is, are they the same breed?
NO!

Since the full spectrum of the APBT wasn't used in creating the AST,
their heritage isn't the same as a breed.

The conformation standards are not the same.
The AST has over sized head and front end. Isn't athletic as the APBT.
AST are straight back with less dexterity and a smaller rear end.

The temperament and instinctive traits are not the same.
By breeding all gameness out of the AST,
the APBT has a much more stable temperament.
Much more soundness, more fearless, more trustworthy of people.
Less apt to fear bite or turn on its owner.

If AKC can say the Mini-Bull Terriers and the Standard Bull Terrier are different breeds because of size and registration can not be crossed registered or the Toy, Miniature and Standard Poodles are different breeds and can not be crossed registered because of mire size,

HOW CAN THE APBT AND THE AST BE THE SAME BREED?

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my point is that they all started as apbt. how did the amstaff come to be? i understand the argument as far as genetics and their history(peds) but the thing is that when its comes to these breeds their peds dont tell you what kind of dogs you have always. I admit difference somewhat in appearance and build but its being shown that a dog can do well showing both ukc and adba. What makes these dogs different is beyond appearance and peds. I wasnt tryin talk in a whole different direction. I was just trying to state that the difference goes beyond the registry and the peds. They are different dogs bc they were bred for different things. Not tryin to call anyone out, just givin my 2 cents

 

Well that is your sad luck.
Because all "game bred dogs" came from UKC dogs.:cool:
How do you if that dog can hunt until you hunt him?:rolleyes:
Talking the talk is one thing,
but you will never know until you cull for purpose.
Walking the walk will tell what you are feeding.
Rest is just speculation.

BTW don't tell anyone "Alvin the Dog" wasn't game just because he had AST in him......

 

The above post tells you the difference and how they came to be......

 

One thing more:

I´ve been told i don´t understand this discussion but I understand this:
it sounds to me like some here expects that a registration in itself should guarantee certain breeding criterias, criterias that are against very popular laws.
No one can seriously expect that, can you?

The registration should guarantee that the dog is pure bred to the blood. And UKC registration unfortunately don´t do that.
So... you have to read the pedigreee... and know what you are reading about.

 

I don't know of any working Malinois people who go around screaming about how the cousins of their dogs being bred for show conformation aren't really Mals. Those I know who work their dogs stick with and breed to the dogs owned by people with their points of view and taste in dogs and the breed keeps on going. That simple. Only we seem to be so stuck on labels. One of the most wicked dogs I have ever seen anywhere, anytime was an AKC registered red-nosed bitch. Having Eli in a ped does not guarantee a dog will work like him, just the same way that having AKC CH Big Blue Head doesn't mean a dog can't handle himself if called upon to earn his kibble. Where you find them.

 

I have to admit that your postings confuse the hell out of me. Maybe it's just me. :confused:

I don't have all the truth, no... just my humble opinion. I do believe that $$ still makes the bully world go round and round. It's a niche market for those that want a dog to "look" big and tough or for those that can turn a quick buck with offsprings that haven't even been born yet. I see it everywhere I go and with random "bully" owners that want to chat with me. They ask what bloodlines I have and are always quick to tell me that their Razor's Edge, Gotty,etc dogs that they spent over a grand on are real pitbulls, that they have never heard of the bloodline I own. :rolleyes: Some things will just never change. I thought I made my disclaimer clear when I put *typical* bully breeders but I guess not. I am aware that there are some of the these breeders making an honest attempt to work out health issues and function with these dogs but not nearly enough to make it the majority yet. Surely a sanctioned event isn't going to fix the problem with the American Bully...a breed that was built on greed. When's the last time you heard of a bully breeder keeping all of thier litters or just giving them away to folks they know?

The showring (UKC, AKC) may be helping to keeping the APBT image positive and the breed around for another decade or so but contributes nothing to keeping the true APBT preserved (for obvious reasons). This is why it's like a pot calling the kettle black with show breeders and bully breeders.

Those that have APBTs know what they have. They do not need a piece of paper or a fancy ribbon to prove their dog's worth.

I suppose it was much easier way back when it was just winners and losers. :p

 

Good points.
If we look at it honestly, of the registries mentioned the ones which do the most to guarantee that the dog is "pure to the blood" listed on the papers, and are most "respected" and "accepted" outside our small circle,
the AKC is it. UKC runs second, and as much as I love and own the dogs registered by them, due to a lot of shady shite in the not too distant past, the ADBA runs a very distant third.

 

If after 40 years you still can't learn i feel sorry for ya....
Any dog can jump, run, grab a sprinpole shake the hell of it..doesn't make it a apbt....

the difference between a breed of a dog to another is the what they were bred for period...

 

OK, I've got an ass-kicking presa willing to take all comers and able to dispatch most, that comes from a line of Presas bred to be that way for thirty years. If she whipped every single dog on your yard and your best friend's yard, would you be willing to use her in your breeding program? What would you register the pups as?