Breeding to a well bred cur?

If you do expect to keep all the pups
sperm doesnt know if it comes from a cur or game dog
they all have the same chance
if the blood nicks well it works 2 cur parents or not

 

Bingo!!

NGK

 

Production has no correlation with performance. You can't make em stay, and you can't make em produce.

 

I've been reading the article about genetic redirection by Cali Jack, and all although i agree with you there are far enough other good dogs to breed too, i do think his theory is very plausible. If there was no other choice, lets assume the rest died. id breed to the one shit dog out of a whole good litter then the one good dog out of a whole shit litter. i believe its logical that if you continue to linebreed on this one good dog out of a whole shit litter, this is the same you can expect in the next litter.

Hard Culling or Genetic Re-Direction by CA Jack

 

Since when does a cur get the chance to be bred? It shouldn't matter if it makes the hour mark but stands the line on all 4's...fact is, he quit.

 

A lot of big talkers on here............

 

Hmmmmmmm? Jeep's sire a well bred cur, that was a titled champion, and last time I checked he was know as ch bo r.o.m! Even producing champions and good dogs when not bred to honeybunch. Hmmmmmmmmmmm? Yep no way I'd breed to that dog or even own anything off of him! Rotflmfao man get real and give me a break! Me or ANY OTHER DOG MAN WOULD/SHOULD BE PROUD TO OWN A DOG LIKE GR CH OUTLAW, CH MAGNUM R.O.M, CH JEEP R.OM., AND CH BRONCO AMONG OTHERS! Anyone who says that they wouldn't and all this blah blah, keep that bs to yourself.

 

Thank's Button!

 

When you guys name famous dogs that ended up quiting and what they produced, did you ever stop and think that maybe they were bred BEFORE they quit when they were still showing to be game? I find it very hard to believe that those old timers were breeding to dogs they knew were curs, after all what they didn't sell they had to use and put their money behind it.

Mac says there is no correlation between production and performance but I am not so sure about that. I think that poor production has more to do with the true breeding of a dog and wether it is family bred. A true bred family will reproduce itself pretty consistently and in fact the "definition" of a family within this breed means a small gene pool with little variance and the passing down of traits in a consistent way to the offspring.

I don't like to talk about what I have done (which is pretty much nothing), but our dogs come from a cross between 2 different families. One of those families is a true bred one that was honestly kept for 100 years but the other one was full of questions and doubts as far as their genetics and how they were bred. The way I knew that of all the dogs that carried similar pedigrees these were a family was because they consistently reproduced their traits in their offspring. Just about every single one had the same style and physical makeup as well as other traits such as intelligence, natural air and strength...etc. Later on when I got my first litters I was proven correct as they also shared the same traits as their parents, grand parents, cousins, uncles and nephews. Not all are equally competitive or as good but they all share the exact same traits in different degrees. What this does is allow me to know before hand what I can expect of a breeding to a certain degree, and the rest is always a surprise lol.

So is there a correlation between production and performance? I think there is and here is my experience to show you why I think this way.
First lets start off with the quitters...
This bitch was a good one, she won her first in short order against good competition. She was bred and then went on to her second show. It doesn't state it on the ped but she lost her second standing after 2.10 hs.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=341351
This is her son, he also won his first and then lost his second standing....
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=341071
As you can see, like mother like son....

Now here are the ones that didn't quit...
My bitch was never shown but she did show game. This is her littermate brother who lost game to a son of another Gr Ch, he didn't survive.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=264836
This is one of the dogs from my bitch. She won her first but then lost her second showing DG...
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=365857
After her first one she was bred and all but 2 died of salmonela when they busted into the chicken coop and ate the eggs. Unfortunately, both those that survived were later lost in accidents. The one I had here with me (the other was with my partner) was found dead in hold along side my old Mayfield dog... both dead.

Now I am sure that there are many others out there who also have this same experience. In fact I am positive there are and that's how this breed was created, through testing and selection of only the best and gamest. I think if they were to tell their stories you would see there is little difference between them all.
So I do think that there is a correlation between production and performance, in fact I count on it. I also think that there is a very real and concrete reason why everyone before us tested and culled and selected. It's what made this breed what it is and by breeding to any cur no matter how it's bred you are in essence taking 10 steps backwards in the breed.

Now I don't like to put out information about us and I have put out quite a lot in this post. I want to clarify that I only did it in order to show why I have the opinions I have and not to "market" these dogs. In fact the last time I sold a dog was over 6-7 years ago and even then the dog was already 5 years old when I did sell him so please don't take this as an invitaion to get a dog because we have nothing to sell and everything we have bred that wasn't culled is still taking up a spot on our yard. Also as you can see, our dogs are certainly not the best and they are not the worst either. They win and lose all the time, but they compete.
Having said that I want to add that I think this is a great topic that Mac brought up and one I would love to discuss. But I won't discuss our dogs, I will discuss this in a general way that can be applied to all the dogs of this breed and I hope that's ok because as I said,, this is a very interesting topic to discuss.

 

I won't argue with you on your ''opinion'', because you are entitled to that, but I do have one question I would like for you to answer. If there is a correlation between production and preformance, how come so many good performers aren't good producers and vice versa? MANY of cold or cur dogs have produced aces! Many aces have produced STRAIGHT GARBAGE! I mean good solid GAME bulldogs that barely produced a dog worth looking at. The object of this game was to win, so who on here can honestly say that if these cur dogs WERE PRODUCING WINNERS, WHO IN TURN WERE CONTINUING TO PRODUCE WINNERS wouldn't want to breed to that dog or have something down from THAT GOOD PRODUCING DOG?

 

that is absolutly not true so u tellin me if u had to chose between two litters one litter parents are dead game ch's and the other parents are 20 mins curs and both litters are well bred it wouldnt matter what litter ur pup came from yeah right.

 

fuck what he produced he ch bo r.o.m as u stated was a cur and i wouldnt have mated none of my bitches wit him

 

i wouldnt because the second he /she quit it would be maggot food

 

And cincyboy I am so glad for guys like finley, carver, and crenshaw, and I'm sure you have or had your share of champions and r.o.m dogs so you would never have to breed to a r.o.m champion cur. I guess all the people who had champions and good dogs down from that cur are not as fortunate as you are. Go figure..............

 

He was probably more dog than you could handle. You act like the dog jumped the wall and didnt want none after 20 minutes?? As its said, He was picked up headed towards the two hour mark with vindicator and did not make a courtesy scratch... Game enough for 6 wins. He wasn't dead game... Not a lot of them are. Gimme a dog like gr ch outlaw any day.

 

I agree whole heartedly venom! I would have been proud to own a dog like that, but these guys have nothing but dead game chs, gr chs, and r.o.m dogs to breed so I guess they have or have had 20 gr ch outlaws laying around. Kudos to them and thier dogs and thier breeding programs.

 

Billski I will attempt to answer your questions as best I can.
First off, I want to repeat what I stated in my post above that I think that large differences between dogs in a litter shows a lack of family breeding and therefor a lack of consistency in breeding. I think that is why most of the dogs today do not reproduce themselves faithfully and show a high degree of variation. This is also the reason why good performers don't reproduce themselves and hence come up short in the breeding pen.
While it is true that "some" cold dogs and curs have gone on to produce very good dogs, it is an exception to the rule and not the rule itself. If you question this, just start to name all the cold dogs and curs that have gone on to produce good ones and compare that number to the number of proven game dogs that have also produced good dogs. You will see that in comparison to the thousands and thousands of dogs, those that were the exception are a very, very small number and if you are banking on a cold dog or a cur to produce for you I don't think that account will be open for long. You are betting on an exception and that is never a good bet, in fact it's the reason why casino's are still in business.
Breeding will never be exactly what you think or hope it will be, there is genetic variability inherent to every gene pool that is built in by nature and allows for mutation and evolution so it is never a sure bet. But you can improve your probabilities by reducing the gene pool through selection and culling and thereby reduce the variance. At the same time you can also breed for traits and lock those traits into the gene pool so that a greater number of offsrping carry those traits. Breeding to a cold dog or a cur contradicts every aspect of the fundamentals of evolution. You are in essence breeding to a gene pool that you know for sure contains genes that are not wanted and you are praying for there to be genes there that are wanted and that those genes happen to be dominant to the unwanted ones. Can this happen? is this possible? sure it is, but what are the odds? About as much as 00 coming up in a roulette wheel that only has 0 I think.

Listen, you can't go making excuses for dogs that do not fit the breed type and gameness is the one most important breed type in the APBT that differentiates it from all the other breeds of dogs. Breeding to dogs that do not fit the breed type and hoping for them to produce dogs that do fit is just not a good idea in any book. Don't use the few exceptions to rationalize something you know to be wrong, you are only hurting yourself and your dogs because in the end it's them who have to give up their life for the bad decisions you made so take responsibility for yourself and your dogs and do the right thing. Time to grow up and I don't mean this as an insult, because when you do the right thing you have no other choice than to grow up and see life and your dogs for what they are.

Having said this I will also say that I myself have curs and maybe even cold dogs in my peds but,,, it didn't happen on my watch and I won't allow it to either.
I owe that much to my dogs at least.

*for every great dog that didn't produce or every cur that did I can show you hundreds of better game dogs that went on to produce, there is no excuse.

 

I just want to add that I don't consider dogs like Bo or Sandman to be curs really. This is "my" exception because they showed ample gameness many times. Some people treat these dogs like machines and they are not, but even machines wear out and I think that's what happened to those dogs. You can only bore out an engine so many times before it gets too weak and I myself have made this mistake.
But once again, these dogs are exceptions and you can count them on your hands.

 

never said i never owned a dog that cured every one has but all im sayin is i wouldnt mated a dog wit him period and u wouldve been proud to own a cur huh that shows me where ur head is at and why u think that breedin was never repeated if the litter jeep was in was so good

 

Probably because the jeep litter was welped when she was four years old? Which means they matured by the time she was six... At what age did she die in the accident??