Bulldog EDITION - Richard F. Stratton

If you go back far enough. I maybe wrong about the terrier not having bull dog blood in it to give it courage (in fact it looks as though I was wrong). That was a long long way back. I asked for evidence and didn't get any apart from Stratton's poor job. However I found some contrary to my own belief. I have a lot of respect for Stonehenge probably the greatest dog writer of all time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_and_Terrier

In here Stonehenge is quoted you can read it for yourselves on the above link. It seems a long while back terriers had some bull dog infused into them for rat baiting. No wonder terriers are so game. They have the old pit bull dog blood in them. See I have an open mind but only when there is proper evidence to ponder on, not just my own wish to believe what I wish to see and not what is! However the link points to the assumption that the modern APBT would have a lot of terrier blood in it. So I think the name is still totally correct ie pit bull and terrier

 

There is also a reference to a dog called "Dustman" that Sporting dog magazine said " as being the optimal dog of the "bull and terrier" type". If someone else can go and find the description of dustman that would be very helpful!

 

He talkes about something similar in his books but this one also mentions he;s watched a dvd recently... SO it would have to be after 2000 i suspect.

 

I am astounded that anyone would think that the dog in Ruben's painting was a Great Dane. In any case, there are many other pictures of the old time Bulldog looking just like our modern dogs. That is the main argument against a significant terrier cross that produced the APBT.

 

Although Mr. Stratton named his scource concerning Testimony that there may have been Modern A.P.B.T in the U.S before the civil war,he did not however name his source concerning the name of the Terrier breeder who shared with him the Idea that the Bulldog was crossed for the benifit of the Terrier not the Bulldog,thus leaving a handle for opposing debaters to work on.I guess he was relying on his credentials as a reknowned authority on A.P.B.T to be enough to satisfy the apprehensiveness of most readers,regardless I would like to address the unamed Terrier breeders claim that the Terrier gained some gameness by the cross to the Bulldog.I believe that what the Terrier breeder,observed was not gameness at all,but that it was the bulldogs, Durability,speed and strength that was passed from Bulldog to terrier that helped it succed in Ratting, and badger baiting events.surely a terrier could kill a rat much quicker had it larger stronger jaws,or that the speed,body strength,weight, and bite force of Bulldogs helped terriers to Kill formidable Badgers,but the Bulldogs, "Game" genes are not one of the traits, I believe that helped Terriers to improve at Ratting and Badger baiting events and here is why.

 

Besides not naming the Terrier breeder Mr. Stratton also failed to share his theory that Terriers are not game and therefore could not be crossed into a game animal,with out the game animal losing its gameness,for although the game gene makes the animal that posses it extremely tough the game gene itself is very fragile, and could not possibly survive a breed cross into another breed that is not game,even whene two game tested A.P.B.T are bred together less then half of the litter will be game.(Game test = a fight with one or two dogs consecutively,close to its equal fighting ability or better,lasting a half an hour or more,to prove its gameness)) maybey he expected that we have all read his books by now.The Game gene as defined by A.P.B.T fighters, is the animals ability to want to fight even though it has been subjected to Extreme physical trauma and extreme fatigue,not just one or the other,it must be both,so as the dog fighter can be assured it will not quit to early in a fight.Now the Terrier being very courageous, crawling into long dark holes to fight and kill animals its own size or smaller or to antagonize more formidable creatures out into the open where man could assist in the killing of the prey,or thus resorting to the team work of its pack ,man being a member of that pack.( The sport of badger baiting proved that Terriers alone as a breed could not regularly kill badgers not even in a pack)had not aquired gameness, but rather the traits required of its job, such as bravery, agility, speed, durability,and the ability to work as a team,and although its job required it to have a high pain threshold,it was not the level of pain threshold that the Bulldog aquired for its job requirements of fighting Bears,Lions and of course its namesake Bulls and because of this lack of pain threshold, Terriers would have to resort to help from its pack,whene trying to kill formidable ground animals such as badgers whereas the bulldog would generaly fight any manor of beast to the death.True the Bulldog in ancient Roman fighting arenas worked as a pack however the level of formidable opponents theoreticaly I assume overshadowed its propensity to resort to team work, in its later usage as a Bull baiter and dog fighter.The Akita is another animal that was bred to fight animals its own equal,that is other Akitas or dogs and like the Terrier also lacks Gameness.So although Mr Stratton at least in this thread failed to address some,in my opinion, minor details,I am looking foward to reading The Bulldog edition,I have heard it is not as long as the others but I am sure as with most of his books ,every sentence will share volumes of information.

 

Well maybey not every sentence but rather every paragraph would be more logical.

 

PICKED THESE UP AT AUCTION,THESE BRONZES WERE DONE IN THE EARLY 19th CENTURY, BY A FRENCH SCULPTURE IN ENGLAND CALLED DUBUCAND View attachment 27810 ON THE LEFT IS BULL+TERRIER..ON THE RIGHT IS A BULLDOG OF THE TIME'S...TAUGHT YA'S MIGHT FIND PHOTO INTERESTING...........

 

Just to add any-body, that say's that there's no game terriers....they have'nt seen a-lot of the world....

 

BLUE8BALL Nice Sculptures however I believe the proper identification of the dogs would be a Terrier on the left and a Bull and Terrier on the right, cant picture the little dog on the left with its small jaws hanging on to a Bull, untill the Bull admits defeat.although the time period that these were made in supports the hand written accounts of the Bulldog being crossed into Terriers,it also supports that the Terrier was crossed with the Bulldog that was bred for its pecuilar looks (its pushed in Brachycephalic nose)Not the Bulldog that was bred for Bull baiting,Or dog fighting,and even though Im sure crosses with actuall bullbaiting,or game, Bulldogs occured, (as I shared earlier),all though unlike the Terrier, the Bulldog that came out of the ancient fighting arenas of ancient Rome worked as a team, but unlike the Terrier due to the incredible formidability of its opennents in Roman fighting arenas, the Pain threshold of the dog that came out of this era was greater then its natural enstinct to work as a team or to look for help from its pack ,as far as me not seeing much of the world,concerning wether or not terriers are game or could be expected to regularly kill Badgers,I would have to agree since I know theory that shows otherwise,I would most certainly have to see it to believe it.

 

I have seen many depictions of Terriers Killing or appearing to have killed a badger, in one such picture the Terriers are playing with a dead Badger, while in the back ground it shows men with long handled tools poking or probing into holes looking for a badger, it appears as though the terriers killed the badger, I believe it is more likely the badger was killed by the men in the background, and the Terriers are merely playing tug of war with the already dead Badger,I have also seen dipictions of Terriers killing Badgers that were dated 1984,so please spare me such pictures, Redardles as to wether Bull and terriers were game, I think any dog fancier would find your sculptures priceless.

 

The sentence was not aimed at any-body in paticular,,the bronzes were commisioned,as said in the mid 1800's one as said was bulldog/terrier cross...two was bulldog of the time...i sure you know we could all write book's about this thing..and go on+on talking or argueing ..about the origein of this dog and that dog,,i think we all know or guess, what bulldogs looked like at the start of time and i'm not thinking flat nose pug....game dog's of diff;type's were and are being crossed into each-other for hundreds of years..diff;folk's diff;strokes...diff;dog's..diff;job's....

 

Did you ever see a Terrier working?

1. Badger baiting is not a sport
2. By your definition of game a, a terrier is surely game

The Game gene as defined by A.P.B.T fighters, is the animals ability to want to fight even though it has been subjected to Extreme physical trauma and extreme fatigue,not just one or the other,it must be both,so as the dog fighter can be assured it will not quit to early in a fight.



Utter Tripe

crawling into long dark holes to fight and kill animals its own size or smaller or to antagonize more formidable creatures out into the open where man could assist in the killing of the prey,or thus resorting to the team work of its pack ,man being a member of that pack.

How do you think a APBT versus Bear would go, Would the APBT fight any manor of beast to the death

There are some terriers that are game, they go uphill for hours, will scratch back if you lift them and they will go out game.

3 You have not got a clue of terriers, Was the objective of Badger Baiting to kill badgers?

4 You have a great command of the english language, that you think will camouflage your lack of knowledge on APBT's and terriers. You are fishing for something, are you the police?

 

Ya got there b-4,me.......1 taught is, badger's don't scratch,,????.....there is a-lot of small game terrier's no doupt..some like to think that no other dog species has the want...of the bull-dog or bull terrier...but there is...spare you pictures ..////??????,,...i have a theory get out more

 

Yep agree that badgers don't scratch.......but you can lift a terrier after an hour with game and they will fly back to the hole....we only hunt foxes....and a terrier can be jammed up in a tight bury getting stick.....and go on to dig more...when i was small i had a border bitch that run straight in to a wheaten bitch 3 times her size every time she got loose, to get trounced and she would have went out game...

We selectively breed terriers to be game for their use, a lot of them will take a hold and stay stuck in till you dig them out...Bull blood would have been added, to add size, and consistency to lines that were not showing enough working %'s in their litters....its the quickest way, rather than breeding worker to worker for a number of generations...
if you cross with bull blood most of the litter will show plenty of drive and you will have a consistently high % of workers after a couple of generations plus they look better with stronger heads....

 

I'm with ya t-b,on what ya saying.....remember a-lot of un's....love the border's...as soon as i move i'll.pick a few up...god willing,i'll have the space.........there's still a few good wheaten's ...hope-fully.....

 

Still good wheatens about, can't speak about borders now as i haven't seen many working in the last 20 years...

 

No, I read a book at the library on them once,but no, I have not and do not care to see one work, for it is my belief that the fighting of a domesticated animal that was seperrated into its particular breed for combat,against a wild animal that only fights for survival, is animal cruelty,of course some will argue that seperrating and utalizing the amplified killing traits of the wolf,through centuries of breeding to create the Bulldog was a overly cruel act.I know theory that argues differently . Badger baiting was a sport in late 1800sor earlier,they used a large barrel, or some sort of small covered pen,No the terriers are not game by my definition,because of the Extreme factor,The extreme Physical Trauma inflicted by Bears, Lions, and Bulls on the on the dog that was to become the A.P.B.T,was far more severe then that inflicted on the Terrier by small ground animals,sure the badger could and did strike life ending injury to the Terrier,however unlike the the Bulldog the badger could resort to team work and hold at bay and distract its prey,so that a member of its pack could get in a bite,and yes the Dog that was in the ancient Roman fighting arenas did the same,but its opponents were far more larger and inflicted far more deadlier wounds wich caused the descendants of this dog (the A.P.B.T)have a much higher pain tolerance,then the Terrier,and therefore could take more physical trauma,So the Terrier may have a stronger pain threshold then most domesticated dog,it does not posses a Extremely high pain threshold That the Game bred A.P.B.T is known to produce and it will stop engaging in uninteruppted physical combat and resort to teamwork......to be cont...

 

some will stop engaging in physical combat and some won't (its the same with APBT's) Don't judge something if you haven't seen it with your own eyes...you ain't seen so you ain't qualified.........

 

there is a SIZE DIFF IN BOTH...BEAR=BULLDOG.......SMALL TERRIER=BADGER,FOX,ETC;ETC;.....FACT MOST BULLDOGS WOULD GET THERE BACK'S BROKEN BY THE BEAR...HENCE THEY WERE MUZZLED+DE-FANGED(BEAR)....DO YOU THINK WHEN A SMALL TERRIER GO'S INTO AN ANIMAL 2/R/3 TIMES IT'S SIZE..THAT THESE WERE MUZZLED...AS YA SAY YA NEVER SEEN SMALL DOG'S WORK A TRIAL...SO THERE IS NO USE ON GOING ON WITH THIS......................PS:T-B...YEP GOOD BORDER'S ARE RARE NOW FROM WHAT I HERE.................