Game for a while... then cur?

Well said......

 

So basically, you never know how far you can go, until you've went too far? now assuming hypothectically of course, same handler, keep, and qaulity opposition. (1x,2x,3x,2x,4x) I'm assuming (which I shouldn't) that you wouldn't breed a cur, yet by all means the dog was considered "GAME", until his lost. Win lose or draw, his production level would be the same. (Game or cur) If you bred him after his 3hr win, but then he curred his 6x out, you wouldn't breed him again? Even if he produced nice? That seems to leave two alternatives, don't press the issue or freeze sperm? Correct?
Like an old hall of fame boxer tarnishing his legacy?

 

The way he's thinking ALL dogs are curs and that is just not the case

 

I would like your opinions on this hypothectical scenario related to gameness and genitics.

Say a dog convinced you he was game by winning several contests. Some as long as 3hrs.Suddenly he loses his 6th time out. 1hr (stopped)
3 hours of solid working is long enough for me to consider the dog game. However, everybody has their own opinion/s and expectation/s for their own animal. Assuming these previous 5 times the dog was taken out were legitimate matches, then the dog achieved his GR CH status,and in a very honorable way. Why the need to take him out for a 6th? He seemed to have just met a better opponent that time though.

Is he a cur?
Depends. Was he given a courtesy scratch and ran it? Was he too damaged to be able to run it and counted out? If so, then the owner's fault for leaving him down too long and will never know. Leaving out valuable information needed to determine if he curred out or not.

Should he be out of the breeding program?
As stated above, not enough information given on what happened after he was declared the loser. Giving the dog the benefit of having an owner that made a stupid mistake on not picking him up early enough with enough energy to scratch, I would breed him, if I felt he could produce based on his genetic make up.

Do you feel his genetics changed with opinions?
Short answer-no.

I already have my own opinions, but I wanted to study different ones.
Didn't read the entire thread before posting, but will afterwards. Curious to know what you think.

 

That way of thinking does seem kinda harsh, yet, that is the prevelant thinking amoung fanciers here. One thing here I noticed, is that those who tend to think in extreme absolutes, tend to be younger, than those who don't. No disrespect intended, but those out here who feel that way, just don't have serious time in with the dogs. In this hypothectical situation, I would support the dog, even in defeat. Now some dogmen in hypothectical situations, would pick up, mid scratch (beating the count out) and go down as a game loss. Thats how it would reflect in the report, but be considered "BS", by those in attendance. That was what I got out of the comment about knowing when to pick up, but that still wouldn't change anything but the report. (which helps sell pups)
Just curious minor threat, How old are you?

 

Ok, hypothectically, lets say the dog's 3rd match was declared a draw, due to unsportmanslike conduct, and the handler was in no position to enforce the rules, but was way, way, ahead. His sixth time out was for Gr. Ch., but he was already considered one, off the record by those who knew the facts. I could give a hypothecticall name, if allowed. The dog was (hypothectically of course) able to continue but didn't. Obstensibly the very definition of cur, just as his previous wins were wholly legitimate, facing progressively tougher competition, which had defeated quality opponents. No courtesy.
Would you breed after knowing these facts?

 

Can we say got game?


No dog or boxer or UFC fighter could ever go 100 percent win record.

Think about it !!!!!!

 

mabyt the dog wasn't in the best of shape the last time when he was rolled, he may have not been worked properly before, and he just got too damn tired, i mean hell even the heavy weight champion boxer can lose if he hasn't been working out properly. but i'd look at the other dogs he won over, and work him right and try again. if he did the same, he wouldn't be bred anymore. what has his offspring done from previous breedings? or have they been tested?? how old is the dog?? maybe he's getting too old?? maybe he has some kind of health issues that made him get wore out. i'd work him and test him again.

 

Fedor Emilianko ( ok I spelled it wrong, but you knew I would say that)

 

That way of thinking does seem kinda harsh, yet, that is the prevelant thinking amoung fanciers here. One thing here I noticed, is that those who tend to think in extreme absolutes, tend to be younger, than those who don't. No disrespect intended, but those out here who feel that way, just don't have serious time in with the dogs. In this hypothectical situation, I would support the dog, even in defeat.
Didn't feel the first part is directed towards me so I won't reply. Good to see you would support the dog though. He has seen a lot more time than the average 'proven' dog.

Now some dogmen in hypothectical situations, would pick up, mid scratch (beating the count out) and go down as a game loss. Thats how it would reflect in the report, but be considered "BS", by those in attendance.
How do figure it would be considered "BS" by those in attendance? True fanciers of this breed should and would appreciate the exclusive trait in these dogs, whether being picked up in 33 minutes or the stated hour. Do you feel those in attendance would have been satisfied if the dog died in combat?

That was what I got out of the comment about knowing when to pick up, but that still wouldn't change anything but the report. (which helps sell pups)
Curious to know if this is about what is best for the working canine or the wallet of the owner? If you were to be pleased with the effort given by your dog then that should be the only thing that matters IMO.

 

Hypothectically speaking, he was old (5yrs), and at that level , hypothectically of course, you can't step down the level of competion because that wouldn't answer any questions realistically. Also, the finacial aspects of that level of GR.CH. , competition, would prevent it. I doubt a GR. CH. would be hypothectically coming out for a working man's bet, otherwise every one from first timers on up, would be all over him, like a hobo on a hotdog. I mean hypothectically, who wouldn't want a piece at $300 - $1,000? Beating a Gr. Ch. on your first time out, brings prestige, and a life time of bunz. (Breeding)

 

yep, it shouldn't be stepped down at all, gr ch. hell no it shouldn't be. but what i was saying is, some dogs age faster, i've seen some dogs whether it be game dogs or hunting dogs, retire at 4-6, and some last alot longer, hell i've seen some deer hounds, or hogdogs retire out at 5, and some hunt til the day they die of old age. teeth falling out 15 years old, still running the hell out of deer. some dogs age faster than others. but i'm getting off topic. i would test the dog again. work his ass off, and test him again. i can't really think straight at the moment, tired as hell, i'll probably retype this tomorrow, so if i said something dumb just let it go lol, i so tired i seeing blury. but to me, 5 years old, gr. ch. he's almost to retiring age. i'd test him again.

 

Ok, hypothectically, lets say the dog's 3rd match was declared a draw, due to unsportmanslike conduct, and the handler was in no position to enforce the rules, but was way, way, ahead. His sixth time out was for Gr. Ch., but he was already considered one, off the record by those who knew the facts. I could give a hypothecticall name, if allowed. The dog was (hypothectically of course) able to continue but didn't. Obstensibly the very definition of cur, just as his previous wins were wholly legitimate, facing progressively tougher competition, which had defeated quality opponents. No courtesy.
Would you breed after knowing these facts?

It's tough to say if I would breed to him. Going 3 hours if very impressive, as I mentioned in my previous post but quitting is never a trait that doggers want to have evident in their pups' parents or in their own dog. As mentioned by other members, these dogs are not machines and can and most likely will quit if pushed too far. I would tip my hat to the dog for at least going a good distance in his campaign and point the finger at his owner for expecting too much out of his dog. Especially if it was to make a point to observers. Keep it about the dog/s first and none about the critics. And I honestly don't know if I would breed to him.

Here is a similar scenario where I asked the same type of question. I asked a member in another thread a long time ago if they would take a pup from Finley's Bo back in the day. This being known he produced Jeep and other good dogs, but quitting to Vindicator. Don't remember if I got a clear answer as I didn't give you one either, but curs can produce too so you never know.

 

What I meant was, if he isn't going to come across, and is picked up as "GAME", because you know he isn't crossing, to me that is "BS", and is no way the same as picking up from the bottom and then running a game courtesy.Those who pick up, to avoid being counted out, are thinking of thier wallet. (IMO) To me , thats "BS". Hypothectically, of course.
Oh, and I would take everyhing of Finley's Bo that I could.
P.S. Hypothectically (of course) testing wouldn't erase the result or stigma. Infact, testing seems extremely overated. Hypothectically, a good test is a cheap , working man's wager his first match. (IMO)

 

Marty, No, the way I'm thinking is not all dogs are curs, all dogs will quit if you want them to and that was my main point about knowing your dogs and when it's time to send them to the brood pen and let them live the good life I used Ch Stallone as an example, he was bought as a Ch and told he had seen enough time and it wouldnt be in the new owners best interest to let him see anymore time, they did and he quit. I'm ALL about the best interest of the dogs.

I wont make excuses for a cur though, I dont think dogs have a bad day, bad days are for curs. Giving a dog with a "bad day" a second chance isnt giving back and thats the facts

take care

 

Marty, Can you elaborate on this?

Thanks

 

A cur is a cur but no one has to tell you what a cur is. You see you think
you must meet the decision. If you want to explain to me it gives no difference between a 2minutes fight and a 3 hours fight well, that I cannot take seriously of course. You said it, it is true these animals are not machines. You know what that mean? Exactly, they can have a bad day. Look many Gr CH and Champion have never fought during 3 hours. Many of them maybe would be stopped after 2.56 or 3.04 and then? What now Gr CH or cur? I see it this way, this dogs are working dogs. Not more. Keep in mind he is not a machine and dont make your self a fool with all this cur or not cur dead game yadayada BS. You know just like I many people search so desperately after a cur and beside that they have totally forgotten to look in the mirror.

 

One thing I lean toward believing is that gameness as well as everything else in life comes in degrees. That said, a "bad day" for a dog bred for a purpose should in no way mean it can quit its job. HELL NO!!!! A dog that quits is a cur regardless of how it feels that day. A dog that has a bad day will work less and be less able BUT will continue until the end. Of course when handler realizes dog is having a "bad day", dog should be picked up. So, in essence, a game dog will not quit despite "bad days", sickness, pain, or injury. A good handler will do the quitting via pick up regardless of anything else.

Are all these dogs curs? No, most of these dogs are in degrees of cur"ness". Game dogs are not the majority in our breed. Game dogs are found far in between and watching their display of gameness is always marvelous. Those displays of worm walking or hind propelling scratches really show you determination despite adversity. Gameness does not need "winning" to validate it. A game dog can win or loose. A game dog does not quit. A cur will quit despite loving owner cheering him to continue.

In my humble opinion, these Ch and Gr Ch titles are a joke. IMHO, it has hinder the evolution of the breed by making owners not want to match after somehow getting one of these titles bestowed upon their dog(s). Achieving titles should not be the determining factor of retirement. It is my philosophy that in the pre-1976 BS laws, dogs were matched (ignoring $) to test a breeding program against another man's program. It was the responsibility of the breeder to either show or give to show. The creation of titles has commercialized matching as a means to money. If a dog is able and willing, it should be shown against the best possible choices despite a risk of loosing Gr Ch status. Money should not be the deciding factor of who to match against. Kennel and dog reputation/record should be what dogmen should look at when seeking to go into the "best".

Someone touched on so-called dogmen that will pick up a dog before it quits for sake of kennel reputation or money. I believe those men/women either do not know or have a different understanding of dog matching. As most clear-minded people in the dogs will know, it is all about improving the breed through identification of best candidates for breeding purposes. Money should never be a hinder/obstacle to matching two great dogs. Money is the blind-fold that leads to a deterioration of the dogs over time.

 

I agree 100%. And that goes for many things in life as well.

 

realonebulldog, You go ahead and keep your dogs that go 3hrs and pack it in, yeah sure theyre not curs, because maybe they just had a bad day.

its real simple, if a dog quits, he's a CUR, no excuses. How is this debatable, only people with weak definitions of gameness and wanting to make excuse think dogs that quit arent curs. THe dog just wasnt on that day, he had a bad day, he'll get em next time, lmao boo hoo, the dog is still a CUR


later