Shock Collar, YES OR NO??

I just saw a friend work his Mali that was comin out of his skin to do his thing....HIGH DRIVE, ALPHA ORIENTED, didn't miss a step that dog, so impressive made ya wanna cry...worked on a e-collar. I could watch that dog compete all day long, and that dog could go all day long!

The e-collar is just a tool, you can match the tool to the job, it is pretty simple.

 

[font='Verdana','sans-serif']Follow the great advice ABK gave you as it was great! Everything you’re seeking is accomplished through basic obedience. Leave the E-collars for fine-tuning and proofing your dog.[/font]

 

well the first one i bought was defective and shocked the dog while she wasnt even doing anything wrong

for the other dog (my problem child) a Better higher priced collar really worked
i had also purchased a battery operated horse fence charger as some here told me would be good......

the result...peace with the neighbors that were giving me hell
also , a quick call to the police after they last threatend me and
low and behold, they are quiet now....

however, the combo of the battery operated fence charger
and the e-collar(unecessary now) has worked
time to time i pop on the collar to make sure that the problem child
remains free from bad behavior......
she only needs the beep to tell her shes is exhibiting unwanted
behavior......

good luck , stick with it, and most of all
the least expensive most effective dog training device is

.....................YOU........consistantly on the job

 

I did say that I've seen dogs that didn't mind.

I still see them as unnecessary. I would imagine that a dog who is really driven to work could be trained without electricity. Yes, its a tool, but I feel it is a tool that has been over-promoted and mis-represented by some trainers as a magic box that can make all your dog's problems go away. I've only seen one dog in person who was being worked with an e-collar, and that dog was bummed out. The gal that I was there training with, who has placed Pit Bulls in the top 50 for obedience without a drop of voltage, had to leave when the other lady started working her dog, because she said after a while the dog starts screaming when she gets zapped.

I'll have to pass. Give me a leash and some treats and I'll go from there.

 

tried the shock collar here at the house with my oldest female. she was put through weeks of training--cause that's the key--but then she tested it and tested it until she finally just went on through. ended up not being able to use it after about three months

 

mydawgs, serious....forget sometimes the boss's thing. If one is not able without use of force to dominate a dog he should buy to himself a hamster . Fear and Respect are 2 different things. Respect can contain love and trust... Fear not.A Bulldog will see you also as a leader if you have no arms and legs .... he does this because he loves you and would run for you into the fire. Especially Bulldogs are quite different dogs than Rottweiler, Kangals or for example Owtcharkas. Bulldogs are mostly very soft and friendly to people .If you search for a dog that dominates yourself and maybe bites you, you should avoid Bulldogs.

 

Well realone you and I will have to part ways here, from what you say the APBT is this magical breed that is immune to being a cainine. A dog is a dog, each breed has unique characteristics. Every cainine like every person are unique in their personality. Just because a dog is driven and alpha oriented it does not mean the dog is PA, it means the dog will do as he (according to his character) pleases when he wants. This kind of dog can only be corrected by a human in a fashion that the dog will respect - not fear. In a wolf pack this kind of animal that continiually challanges ends up with a severe ass kicken or becomes the next pack leader. Fear has nothing to do with it, it is all about respect. I will not humanize a dog when training so I don't know what you are referring to when you say a dog LOVES you. I know what you mean when you say it. An animal can act with great emotion as perceived by a human, that does not make you a PL to that animal. I know a lot of folks that own PBs that are dominated by their dogs, the dogs do not present a danger to their owners because they are people passive due to the fact they ARE PBs. These dogs do as they please and their owners tolerate it.Thank goodness they don't own a GSD or Dobe or those folks could very well face a correction from one of these guardians that involves the dogs teeth...one of the dogs method of correcting a human.

Again every dog is different, I spend a lot of time around protection sport animals so I see the high end drive dogs, they are magnificent representations of their breeds, and some could never have been trained with love a leash and doggy treats (that would require a dog with high food drive). Just because a dog is a PB does not mean it couldn't be this type of dog...like I said a dog is a dog, they are all cainines and they will all be influenced by pack behavior, some to extremes others to varying degrees. An experienced, seasoned trainer can see this quality in a dog very quickly. And then the appropriate method of training can be determined for the desired behavior.

 

Yes true Bulldogs are a magical breed. Those which real Bulldogs love(and know) juste like I do will agree to me. We have quite simply different points of view . I have no problems with (from the historical point of view): Gentlemem, face your dogs ... let go! However, you observe with pleasure how dogs attack people. People are just different . Love .... what is love. Most important from all. Love is something divine and, therefore, just also a little bit especially human. I call my dog. He comes to me and lets himself fondle the throat . I have never observed with dogs or wolves that the leader a subordinate calls and then fondles to him the throat. Why not? Because people and dog or wolves are different .Therefore, the collaboration between dog and person is also something special. Not to compare with the relation between dogs or wolves. People can fall back on empathy and unbelievable intelligence . If they are not able of it, however, they must fall back on other support .......

 

The thing about shock collars is.........they have such potental for misuse. You can't ruin a dog using positive training methods but it takes longer and requires more thought and effort so........ just shock the dog.

Reminds me of the conversation between Luke and Yoda regarding the use of the "force".


Luke: Is the dark side more powerful?
Yoda: Not more powerful, quicker, easier, more seductive.


If people can train tigers and walruses using operant conditioning then you can train a dog using it. And it doesnt have the potential to poison the relationship the way force methods do. After all, wild animals have no desire to please humans. I can't imagine that a strongly "alpha" dog is going to be "harder" than say a leopard seal.

 

LOL....pls can I be Yoda? I already have his ears and the side profile....

 

Bulldogs are cainines...they adhere to a pack mentality. Felines do not. Nor do many other speices. It is a simple study of cainine behavior. All dogs come from wolves, they are all cainines. Pack order is a well documented phenomenon. We can agree to disagree, but to humanize a dog is an error IMO. I am no huge advocate of th e-collar, I am a huge advocate of what works. I am also a huge advocate of training tools...let the tool match the task. Let the job of training those difficult issues go to the experts. I do not know of one infamous trainer that rules out any tool...Milan, Frawley and others, they simply use what is BEST to get the job done. None of these people want to break a dog. So I will say again use what works, if you need help ask an expert, don't take short cuts, do your homework.

I really dislike it when any one says you can love a dog into respecting you...I am not even sure what that means, but I do know it gets a whole lotta people into trouble with their dogs.

 

That's a different kind a thing. Not talking 'bout the electric fence.

 

IMO we are talking about two different things here. I agree dogs are NOT little furry people. My gripe is the casual use of a "tool" that can so easily be misused and ruin an animal. There isn't any study I'm aware of on the use of shock collars but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that most people who use them misuse them and are far too casual and flippant in their use, IE most of the use is abuse by people too lazy or disinterested to bother really training their dog.


That's a big reason I love NILF. Subtle, non force based. But it shows the dog who's boss mighty quick. It might be a different matter with a "super alpha" type dog but most game-line dogs shouldn't be that way with a human. I'm sure some are but I wouldn't own one and would be careful enough in my choice of breeders and pups to not end up with one.


But I do know of people who train hard ass Malinois up to Sch III using positive. So I know it can work with even hard dogs. So whats the advantage of heavy force? Quicker, easier.


But if some super hotshot trainer competing at high level wants to use force techniques I have less of a gripe with THAT since its frankly over my head. My issue is joeblow off the street looking for a quick fix to a normal typical dog problem. Therein lies the great potential for misuse of an admittedly potentially dangerous (for the dog) training tool.

 

who here has actually used an e collar

 

i call a shock collar "DOG TRAINER FOR DUMMIES" i see no need for them everything you as a dog owner want to accomplish can be done using basic obedience and thats that anyone who thinks they "need" an e-collar "needs" to leave the dog at the breeders....JMHO

 

Penn I agree with a lot of what you say. We are in violent agreement about the propensity to misuse this tool. I will tell you I know a lot of K-9s and Military Police K-9s and they say it is a mixed bag. Some dogs need them some do not, all depends on the dog. I certainly agree the e-collar (not shock collar) is a tool for a pro, and would not use one unless recommended. I would not call Ceasar Milan a hot shot trainer, as a matter of fact he is a foremost expert in dog behavior. He uses this tool when a dog has such exagerated drives they go into a hot zone. The dog can be perfectly obediant but when they go into that tunnel vision they do not see or hear. I also agree most APBTs are way too eager to please their masters and thus can be controlled by pos training techniques, but I swear to you there are some (even PBs) that will enter that red zone and your options are as you stated leave them with the breeder or find a way to reach the dog. I have a rescue that did very well with non force OB until it came to a trigger and into the zone she went. All methods were exhausted, many months and many dollars, and thankfully this tool reached her and she learned very quickly...most likely saved her life. Unless you have come across a dog like this and you want to make it work then I say stay open...it's comments like "Training for dummies" that just make me believe that particular person has never encountered such an animal, and that is OK..to each their own, but I was not going to give up on my girl and I used a method that got the problem under control with the guidance and encouragement from a wonderful trainer...not a dummy. Comments like that are hard to hear when you know this trainer saved your dog. I refuse to judge...there was nothing quick or easy about my dogs rehab, I will admit I made a lot of mistakes with her before I got the help I so desperately needed, but I made the mess and I cleaned it up. I suppose that is why there is Baskin Robbins, 31 flavors to suite many tastes....my girl is happy, driven, well behaved dog and I couldn't be more pleased with the results I got from using my Dogtra...she challenges me every day for leadership and every day I remind her I am the HBIC (Head Bitch In Charge)

Much luck to you in alll your training encounters...I hope my girl is the last hard ass dog I ever have to train LOL

 

We have a shock collar for Lucy, she does not wear it all the time nor does she wear it everyday. I think she does great on it and she never gets a shock, she's obediant and comes when called. Yes they can probably be harmful if misused, but like I said, Lucy wears it once in a while and listens so she's not getting punished. Now I just wish my aunt would see the purpose of them and get one for her Great Dane, my aunt's G.D is huugggeee and lets her run all over her house, does laps back and fourth. I think the G.D could use some proper training, but my aunt thinks there 'mean' :rolleyes: . I tried to explain it to her that there not mean if you use it correctly, and once the dog is corrected on its behavior, there is no need to actually 'use' it.

 

And I think it gets a whole lotta people in trouble with their dogs if they use a shock-collar. However, less people would be bitten with certainty if love and Respect played a bigger role in dealing with dogs .

 

Please understand the difference between an e-collar and a shock collar...it is a big difference. And you are so off base with your last comment - all you need do is the research. Most people get bitten and attacked by an alpha dog because they try to love it into submission. "I just can't understand why Fido (120 lb Dobe) bit the crap outa me we just LUV THAT DOG to death!" The respect I will agree with you as a dog has demonstrated he will respond to an alpha with what we people have labeled respect, but those who are new to dogs don't EVER think you can love a dog into respecting or obeying you. Most likely every ankle biter you see coming apart at the seams to attack you on their leashes as you walk by is a beautiful example of trying to love your dog into submission....can you imagine that behavior from a PB at the end of a leash?

A good electronic collar will run from 300 to 600 dollars and your average Joe does not even know where to get one (thus the Pet Smart SHOCK collar) let alone want to pay for one, but e-collars/ shock collars are not nor (I theorize) they will never be a leading cause of dog bites, real you are just dead wrong on this..with much respect however. I can refer you to a very comprehensive accumulation of dog bite statistics and the evaluated reasons for them, some pretty good videos as well.

Now - you won't use them and I have, so lets part there, I have a well balanced dog as a result - not a bad thing right?...I think you made some dangerous inferences and have said my peice on that. As a slew of knowledgable people here have said OVER and OVER an e-collar is for reinforcing an already learned behavior, instantaneously, consistantly or REMOTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Meaning the dog knows what you want from it already and REFUSES to submit)

 

You have a Gander Mountain near by?

They have several nice models.

I've have experience with one I borrowed from my uncle to use for my JRT (EXCESSIVE BARKING AT EVERYTHING EVERYTIME HE WENT OUTSIDE). He had it for his bluetick hound; it'd go out 8, 900 yars in the field.

This one was 300 bones, had a 1000 yd range from the remote, and on the remote, you could adjust the power from 1-15. There was also an audio cue you could sound off w/ another button before letting a little buzz go. The fail safe is it would administer a shock up to 10 seconds, then it will shut off for 30 seconds before you can use it again. Battery life was 5-6 hours with frequent use before the signal started to fade.

On 1, it felt (on my arm) like a mild pinch. I've also seen it stand my uncles dog up on his back two legs when he was in full sprint when he turned it up to 15 when the dog was about 800 yards away.

W/ my dog, I never went above 5, as that is where the comfort level for me starting to go from "hey, this thing's getting my attention" to "goddam that left a sting in my arm."

Let's just say now my dog won't bark at the neighbor dogs anymore, and if he heads out after them, he will run up and down the fence; NO MORE BARKING. He also responds to the "come" command on the 1st issue.

It was a vauable tool, and I belive can be for you too, if used properly.

Get a nice model w/ an adjustable power rate, and start slow, but the dog will learn very quickly. Get one with a long range, since your lucky ass since on 150 acres, right?

I can't say it'd work on all dogs, but my uncle and I both had great success with it as a traning aid (he still uses on his bluetick for when he's waaaaay out there).