Breeders

“Whatever you say, Mr. Oldtimer.”
LOL. I think this has the potential to make for a great debate. I not trying to be an ass or anything I just don’t think he is J. Colby or M. Carver in the breeding world.<O:p</O:p

“That Pat took the works of Maloney, Clouse,and Carver means nothing because everyone has begun with what someone before them had established already.”
Of course no argument with that never knocked him for that.<O:p</O:p

“He had the vision to mix that up and create a family of dogs that undoubtedly to this day ranks in the top 3 of the most successful bloodlines ever.”
How much of it was PP versus the vision and knowledge of Carver, Maloney, and Clouse? I can't think of too many dogs passed Lady In Red (again, born over 20 years ago) that can be considered a foundational dog to ANY modern success story. What modern, winning dogman of the hundreds of people he sells to ... has a key, foundational dog from Patrick anymore? Boyles, Hollingsworth, STP, Anderson, The Mason, etc., all got their dogs well over twenty years ago. What similar success story is going on (presently) in today's game, whose foundational purchase came from a Patrick breeding that took place within the last 5 years? 10 years? If truly a great breeder like you state: shouldn’t the quality of dog be the same now as it was? But yet they are vastly different from gameness to structure to their intelligence. Could that be from the dogs getting farther away from the TRUE source of the actual great breeders? <O:p</O:p

“ And in turn his blood mixed with other blood has led the way to other strains which are very succesful at this time."
Yes they have as I stated you are looking back 20 plus years for that kind of quality too. So was it PP limited involvement or was he just reaping the rewards of Carver, Maloney, and Clouse’s breedings?<O:p</O:p

“Gr Ch Mayday ROM whose blood is highly sought after is basically a half Patrick dog, his Mother Hollingworth's Dolly ROM is basically a Patrick dog.”
Yes I’m very familiar with this line of dogs. Dolly was born on PP’s yard in the early 80’s, off a bitch R. Anderson bred. She actually only has 2 generations of PP’s breeding on top and less then that on bottom. Let’s look at her pedigree, as it should be:<O:p</O:p

-------------- Carver's BOLIO
------ Patrick's BULL BOY BOB, ROM
-------------- Steinberg's TUFFY (PP bought Faith pregnant to Tater)
- Patrick's LITTLE TATER
-------------- Carver's BOLIO
------ Patrick's RED BABY, ROM
-------------- Clouse's GOLDY
* Patrick's LADY IN RED *
-------------- Maloney's TOMBSTONE
------ Patrick's CH TONKA
-------------- Patrick's RED BABY
- Anderson's ROSE
-------------- J. Carver's RED NECK
------ Anderson's AUBURN
-------------- Patrick's GINGER<O:p</O:p

This is how the pedigree should read. How much involvement did he really have as to the quality of these dogs, and who (truly) laid down their foundational quality? Again, Patrick's actual breeding involvement in these dogs was minimal, and was over 20 years ago.

“As far as his involvement he himself says he is a breeder, and I think that is why some people are distracted in purchasing a dog from him.”
Nothing wrong with only being a breeder very few are capable of being both breeder and competitor (successfully). People are distracted by his LOW percentages of game dogs. Now days you get thin-bone, stupid, curs from him in most cases and for most that is unacceptable especially for his asking price. Even with all that said, he is breeding and selling more now than ever.<O:p</O:p

“If he were highly active in matching his dogs he definately would have some champions on his yard and you all would be happier.”
Maybe. Maybe not, you are assuming here. But if he were active he (hopefully) wouldn’t still be breeding the thin-bone, stupid dogs that he is currently. Every now in then he does manage to though a good one. Most of the dogs he is producing are like Ch G I Joe (rank 25 minute cur). There has been some dead game recently that came off his yard. But if you bred in volume like him eventually you are bound to get a couple. Not exactly what I would consider a great breeder. <O:p</O:p

“ People usually like to hear bullshit stories about the incredible feats of certain breeders dogs to justify the purchase.”
True, But I prefer the truth good or bad.<O:p</O:p

“His dogs of now are as good as the past.”
Easy to say, but factually you are WRONG. He has a very LOW percentage yard of untested dogs. Who is presently winning with dogs directly off his yard?

“Buy one and free yourself of your clouded vision”
I have no room on my yard for stupid, thin-boned, curs and the likely hood of getting a good one is very slim.<O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

 

Heres a dog, off Patrick breedings, that has proved himself very well.

..............................................Bolio
..............................Patrick's El Dos Bit Cortaro
..............................................Patrick's Daisy
...............Patrick's Hot Dog
...............................................Patrick's Bull Boy Bob
..............................Patrick's Rose
...............................................Patrick's Kona
.....Cooper's Anton 1xw
...............................................Indian Bolio
..............................Patrick's Bull Boy Bob
...............................................Patrick's Tuffy
...............Patrick's Sheba
...............................................Patrick's Copperhead
..............................Patrick's Molly Brown
...............................................Patrick's Little Koko

GR CH Amboss
...............................................Indian Bolio
..............................Patrick's El Dos Bits Cortaro
...............................................Patrick's Daisy
...............Patrick's Fatty Arbuckle
...............................................Thrift's CH Bobby Jr.
..............................Patrick's Sally
................................................Patrick's Billy II
.....Patrick's Bonita
................................................Kincaid's Rolo
..............................Patrick's Posion
................................................Patrick's Cheryl Tiegs
...............Patrick's Little Beauty
................................................Thrift's CH Bobby Jr.
..............................Patrick's Black Beauty
................................................Boyles' Dirty Mary
Looking at that ped, I see quite a bit of Patricks bred dogs, quite a bit of Patricks influence. Sure, we can pull apart any ped and take it back even further.
You talk about the volume of dogs he produces and where is the quality. You also need to think about the volume of dogs that get bought by people from PP that decide its a "brood" dog right away and breed it because of the paperwork only, PP has no control over that...

 

So for the last decade or so you are only about to come up with a well-known net dog (GrCh Amboss) out of the volume of pups he puts out every year, for how long? PP didn’t breed that dog (owner of the bitch is breeder) even though his name is all over its pedigree.

“You also need to think about the volume of dogs that get bought by people from PP that decide its a "brood" dog right away and breed it because of the paperwork only, PP has no control over that”
All well-known breeders have that same problem with there dogs. But yet you still manage to hear about their dogs. Yet one is hard pressed to find or hear about a note worthy dog (% wise) directly from PP's yard. Not exactly what I would consider a great breeder. But then again it goes hand and hand with my thinking, PP had limited involvement in them great dogs of old the true source was Carver, Maloney, and Clouse. That’s why the quality is vastly different (not for the better) in his dogs now. <O:p</O:p

 

I named one dog that is of exceptional quality, not because he is a net dog lol I know folks that have seen the dog first hand. And yes, V Cooper DID breed that dog, but if it were not for the efforts of Patrick, Cooper COULD NOT have produced that dog, thats what you need to understand.
Shit I'm not even a Patrick fan, but I know enough to respect those that deserve it.

BB

 

“I named one dog that is of exceptional quality"
One out hundreds produced yearly for decades not exactly great. Is it? <O:p</O:p

“And yes, V Cooper DID breed that dog, but if it were not for the efforts of Patrick,”
So again in the last few decades PP has produced what? Is he really the great breeder, you are saying he is or did he just reap the rewards of actual truly great breeders? <O:p</O:p

“Cooper COULD NOT have produced that dog, thats what you need to understand.”
I understand quite well. Couldn’t that be said for every dog PP had 20 plus years ago if it were not for the efforts of Carver, Maloney, and Clouse? You seem to be agreeing with me while disagreeing. It boils down too, is a good breeder only able to produce a few quality generations of dogs (as in PP’s case) or is a truly gift and knowledgeable breeder about to keep a line going (percentage wise)? <O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

 

SO MR.TEXASBULLDOGS WHO DO YOU CONSIDDER TO BE ONE OF TODAYS TOP BREEDERS?

 

LOL its useless arguing with someone that won't listen or accept reason. You down talk Patricks success as a breeder, you don't have to like the man, but you should at least respect his contribution to our breed.

I'm curious as to whom you feel is a "great" breeder??
BB

 

“LOL its useless arguing with someone that won't listen or accept reason.”
I agree 100% but yet for some reason I continue to do it.<O:p</O:p

“You down talk Patricks success as a breeder,”
I have never down talked his success 20-25 plus years ago. Them dogs were great, and closer to the true source of quality in their pedigrees: meaning the dogs from Carver, Maloney, and Clouse. The longer PP has gotten his actual hands on the breedings, the spottier the quality. So is that once again a sign of a great breeder? Caver, Colby, Maloney, Hardcore, The Masons, Bellon Club, and the Devines etc. seemed to be able to breed more than a few generations of good dogs. Why couldn’t PP if he is truly a great breeder like you state? Could it be, that it was the dogs and the breeding savvy of the men that he got them from and not PP’s actual involvement? When looking at a “great breeder” one has to look at the overall picture (past and present) not just judge blindly by picking a generation or two of good dogs. <O:p</O:p

“you don't have to like the man, but you should at least respect his contribution to our breed.”
I don’t dislike the man at all. I do respect what he contributed to this breed 20 plus years ago just don’t think it was his breeding discernment like you seem too. Which stands to reason for your inability to name a modern (within the last 5-10 years) successful person/kennel in today’s game, whose foundational stock came from PP’s yard. I wonder why that is since he is a “great breeder”?<O:p</O:p

 

All he does is repeat like a parrot. He can´t even name a better breeder . I bet you haven´t even been in the game for 3 years. When one of my thin, dumb curs from PP is ready, I'll surely ba calling weights out to you Mr.Texasbulldogs. I wanna see what you come out with. Until then, BLACKBEARD

 

“All he does is repeat like a parrot.”
Maybe if I repeat it enough you will be able to comprehend what is being said. Your pathetic one or two sentence responses have offered WHAT? I’ve giving my opinions and breakdowns of the FACTS, yet you have offered absolutely nada to this tread. WHY is that, I’ve asked several question, are you not capable of answering them (not even one)? <O:p</O:p

“He can´t even name a better breeder”
I already have named some (with more consistent generations), its just your reading comprehension is lacking. You don’t seem to be able to name one though. All you do is name PP for a few dogs had very limited influences on but blindly ignores the thousands that weren’t worth feeding.<O:p</O:p

“I bet you haven´t even been in the game for 3 years.”
It would be another losing bet you’ve placed in your life then. Making a bet with lacking knowledge and/or facts is never a wise thing. But, go ahead an place you bet I will cover it.

“When one of my thin, dumb curs from PP is ready, I'll surely ba calling weights out to you Mr.Texasbulldogs.”
Key words there are “WHEN and SURELY”, so in all actuality you have NOTHING worth mentioning from him NOW or never. That whole sentence is just mere speculations on your part. When and surely may never happen. Keep me posted on your progress I’d like to know how many culls (if any) that you had to go through too get that one good dog.

 

sorry it is off topic but how can i reach Pat Patrick?does he have a web site?

 

YES,JUST GO TO LAWLESS KENNELS,AND YOU WILL FIND HIS WESITE.

 

Ablizin kennels in Russia bought some dogs from PP.Ask him about his experience with the dogs he got from PP.He is surely happy with the dogs he got from STP.

 

Getting back on topic, I think Brian Bailey has made a big impact on the game. Bingo can be found in many great dogs' peds.

 

Keep it on topic or I'll "cull" your post. If you cant contribute to the oringinal post keep your hands off the keyboard. BTW I'll name Mr. Tant since no one else has so far .

 

Was looking into some classic threads and decided to blow some life into this one. Two years later, which are the top breeders of today? Have PP and Colby fallen off the wagon?

Regards,


RH

 

I still like P.P. regardless. My dog from him (& those bred off of her) have served me well.

A lot has changed since this thread was originated in terms of Tant (in jail), Bailey (isn't he in jail too?) & Floyd.

IMO, I still think the big name guys are doing a good job, but I also think a lot of it has gone into "smaller" hands & smaller operations which I honestly believe is a good thing.

Oh, & thanks for reviving some good ol threads.

 

what about Ed Faron from Wildside Kennels I talked to him for about an hour one day he claims to have Many ch. and gr ch.
All of the peds thaT I have seen of his has been impressive

 

I have had dogs down from wildside and they were everything you could ask for I would say Ed breeds very fine dogs. YIS J

 

hmm i havent been studying the dogs for as long as many others here have. I will admit im not green, but more of a aqua blue lol seriously, i would say southern kennels is producing from what i can gather. what do you think bout garner? alot of dogs from him/down from him are being noted nicely.