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What Happened To the Red English Henry Strain

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by Robertosilva, Apr 16, 2016.

  1. Robertosilva

    Robertosilva CH Dog

    Earl Tudor talks about them being his favourites and the best dogs he ever had in Don Mayfield's "The Oklahoma Kid" biography of Earl.

    Extracts below.

    "Then he would wipe the tears from his eyes, put his glasses back on, get in my face and say; it’s all in the “breeding” Don, it’s all in the “breeding.” Then he would tell dogs and others, he would tell me about the breeding of those dogs as the pure ones, the family bred dogs, not the cross ones, the pure ones. Then I would say Earl, what was the best ones that you had, he would cock his head, and his wife Flo would speak up and say, “the best dogs Earl had were the old Henry dogs, you never lost a match with a Henry dog did you Earl???” and Earl with a smile on his face would say; “You’re right Flo, the dogs of old man Henry’s family were the red eyed dogs and were game to the core.” He would say to me, “The eyes were as red as a coon’s eyes, they had a big mouth with a lot of muscle in the head, most were black, but some were white, and some were red rednose dogs.” He said all the Henry dogs could bite hard and were very wild to work and handle. And like the preacher man from Oklahoma he would scream like a cat in the middle of the night, get down on the floor on his knees and say they were deep game dogs, bred of the English breeding."

    "And as the stories were told over the years on his couch, we always ended in talking about “breeding,” as he would say; “The Irish dogs were also deep game dogs.” He would tell me about the different pure breeding of the different families. Then, the tears would come with shakes, and the cry of agony as he looked me in the eyes and said, “these damn so called friends never gave me one bit of credit for my family of dogs, those big shots Shipley and Feeley they got all the credit. Earl always called Bill Shipley the “Big Shot.”

    "He sent his female Flash with a black man to be bred to Red Jerry. He would tell his black friend just what the dog looked like to breed the female to. He would then laugh like and angel flying too close to the ground, he would speak up and say, it was the English dogs Don, you can hear these know it alls talk about the Irish dogs and they were good ones, but the English dogs was where it was at. Red eyed dogs as red as a ruby. Wild to go very hot dogs that would eat up a person, and Flo would speak up and say “Lord yes,” as she pulled up her long cotton dress to her knees and pulled her knee socks down to her ankles to show her scars from dog bites. Earl then laughed and said Flo got bit two or three times trying to part some that would break loose when I weren’t here. I got where I told her to stay in the house and let them fight to the death. So she don’t get bit no more."

    "She would speak up and say; Phyllis those Henry dogs had a big mouth and you had to beat them in the head with a piece of iron to get them to turn loose. Earl would say, “Ya’ll she’s telling you the truth, she’d have a iron bar or hammer in her hand and if one got on her she’d beat it in the head and kill it. Then he would say she’s a sweet little old thing ain’t she, I don’t know how I could have ever made it without her. Flo was a slip 5 ft., 3 in. small woman of near 90 lbs."

    "Earl being a small man, in his prime 117 lbs. with gloves on. He said he would have been a fighter if he had not got shot in the belly one time. As he said Bert was the stronger fighter of us two, but I was like the sun from over the mountain with a sunlight that dances on your skin, but Bert he did me wrong and I never him. And we would talk on about breeding. Earl carried the famous name of “Tudor,” the famous King’s who went by the names of Henry the First, and so on, in Europe."
     
  2. Robertosilva

    Robertosilva CH Dog

    I meant the Red eyed dogs of Henry, that came in Black, White and Red.
     
  3. Robertosilva

    Robertosilva CH Dog

  4. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    Heny was breeding dogs around turn of the last century ... they are in the back of many bloodlines,,,
     
  5. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

  6. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [2607] :: HENRY'S SATAN

    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [32717] :: FLYNN'S DELINGER

    earl stacked the black dogs on the forsythes yard,,,

    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [32719] :: FITCH'S JACK HAMMER
    forsythes black shine aka mayfields ni##er was of the henny type and had no real pedigree,,,
    the dibo pedigree was what sold and mayfield knew what earl liked and base his yard on this henry type...

    I think the dark henry dogs are more of a type that tudor looked for,,,

    I am the only one I know of that sees the relations in those dark destructive henry types
    and the dogs of war the brittish used to storm the isles that started the blackdog folk lore...
     
  7. Robertosilva

    Robertosilva CH Dog

    Nice information Elias thank you. I love that Oklahoma Kid article such passion shown by Earl when talking about the dogs. Sounds like he missed the old days. i know Danny Burton said Earl was very negative about the world towards the end but would get that twinkle in his eyes when talking about the dogs.

    Which were these dogs of war that stormed the isles? And which isles?

    Thanks
     
  8. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    ... the reason there isnt any/many black dogs in ireland and scotland...
    Phantom Black Dogs | Mysterious Britain & Ireland

    Devil Dogs: The Mysterious Black Dogs of England - Modern Farmer

    At the Edge archive: Black dogs mythology

    Origins of The Black Dogs of Bungay

    How old is that story, bro?: Trucking tales, legends, ghosts | Overdrive - Owner Operators Trucking Magazine

    Black Dogs - Mythical Creatures Guide

    5 Terrifying Stories And Lore About The Legendary To Haunt Your Walks Home | Thought Catalog

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_dog_(ghost)

    I had a black dog, his name was depression - YouTube

    the black dog is now a methaphor for bad dog...
    here is the current ideology of the black dog,,,
    im sure you have the means to connect the two...

    and in the middle is the old henry type,,,
    smaller back end that tapers foward to a big head,,,
    dark colored and red eyes or glowing gold eyes,,,
    very destructive and will bite their handelers...

    these type of bullodgs or mollaser dogs of war were perfect for troting side of the horses into war,,,
    the spanish cordoba was probably very similar to these dogs of war,,,
    the cuban bulldogs matched in the 50s probably decended from this spaishn aalunt bulldog also...

    I do think the zebo,,, ni##er and bullyson types are throwbacks to these henry types tudor sought,,,
    I also believe those old henry dogs to be throw back to these british dogs of war,,,
    just as I predict the cuban fighting dogs of the 50s to be throwbacks to the fighting cordoba which folds back to the spanish alaunt and back to the dogs of war...

    I also believe the dogs of war that the spainish/de soto left behind when they were conquered in louisianna and traces of these types were noted all the way back to florida with the other spainsh animal influence to the americas...

    the catahoula was said to be descended from these dogs of war bred to the natives wolves and so forth,,,
    im not sure about anything besides it sure sounds good to me,,, lol...
     
  9. Robertosilva

    Robertosilva CH Dog

    Nice information will look into it tomorrow. There is so many angles to look at the different types of dogs not actual breeds in the past such as the Alaunt/Alano/Alan depending on translation.

    Julius Caesar was impressed with the fighting ability of the British broad mouthed war dogs and they were later imported across the Roman Empire for various uses included the Coliseum.

    In Caius 1575 book of English dogges he mentions the Bandogge and the Butchers dog. The term Bulldogge in literature wasn't used until the 1600's.

    The British dogs were said to come from the east by Phoenician traders in exchange for goods. A few Mastiff dogs were aboard the Mayflower when it arrived on American shores. Many of the native dogs were killed.

    The general theme I get is that the basic dog types were shepherds, Molosser's and mastiff types and the hunting dogs.

    Just found a post on the Carnivora site that sums up what I cant put into words very well.

    "The ancestors of the british Pugnaces came from Central-Asia, and the dogs were brought to Britain by Phoenician and other Eastern traders about 500 BC. Its primary ancestor is the original Asiatic Mastiff. (Assyrian / Central Asian Mastiffs)

    The English used their Mastiffs later to guard their castles but they were also used by the Celts as war dogs and even by nomads to guard camps. In more modern times, Mastiffs were used as bull baiting and cattle herding dogs.

    About the Pugnaces Britanniae, Gratius Falsius an ancient Roman author and historian wrote in the year 8 AD of a large exhibition of dog fights in the ancient Roman amphitheatres between the Pugnaces Britanniae from Britannia and the Molossus from Epirus. The exhibition reflected the wide-mouthed dogs from Britain were far superior to the ancient Greek Molossus.

    “ Although the British dogs are distinguished neither by colour nor good anatomy, I could not find any particular faults with them. When grim work must be done, when special pluck is needed when Mars summons us to battle most extreme, then the powerful Molossus will please you less and the Athamanen dog cannot measure up to the skill of the British dog either. ”
    — Gratius Falsius, 8 AD

    The ancient Roman historian Strabo reported in 38 AD of large English dogs, which were bred in their homeland of Britannia to hunt dangerous game and as war dogs.

    In 43 AD, the Roman conquest of Britain made Britannia a Roman province. At that time, in Britain there were giant, wide-mouthed dogs, which the Romans called Pugnaces Britanniae, that surpassed their Molossus dogs. A Procurator Cynegii, was stationed in Venta Belgarum and responsible for selecting these dogs, which were exported to Rome for contests in the amphitheatre and for integration into the military of ancient Rome as war dogs.

    The 'Pugnaces' dogs of Roman Britain were specifically referred to by the Greek historian Arrian in 130 AD.

    It is an undisputed fact that when the Romans invaded these islands they found the natives possessed of a fierce and powerful breed of dogs, which they used in war.
    Some or even a lot of these dogs were sent to Rome for more brutal purposes, namely, to bait the bull and other animals for the amusement of the people in the amphitheatres. These were the "broad-mouthed dogs of Britain," differing, no doubt, very much from either the bulldog or the mastiff of to-day, but possessing the great strength and indomitable courage that distinguish both of these breeds, and which so eminently fitted their progenitors for the rough and hazardous sports for which they were used.

    The ancient Roman poet Grattius (or Grattius Faliscus) wrote of British dogs, describing them as superior to the ancient Greek Molossus, saying:
    "What if you choose to penetrate even among the Britons? How great your reward, how great your gain beyond any outlays! If you are not bent on looks and deceptive graces (this is the one defect of the British whelps), at any rate when serious work has come, when bravery must be shown, and the impetuous War-god calls in the utmost hazard, then you could not admire the renowned Molossians so much."

    A Latin poet thus refers to them and their employment in the amphitheatres:
    And British mastiffs break the brawny necks of bulls.
    A feat which I imagine could not be literally performed by any dog then or now.

    Although the majority of writers refer these fighting dogs to the mastiffs, there are others who think the dog so used by the Romans was the Irish wolfhound; and this view was cleverly argued by a writer in the "Field" in 1871, whose letters, signed "E. W. R.," were reproduced in "Dogs of the British Islands," and in these are given quotations showing that Irish dogs were used in the amphitheatres; but this does not show that English dogs were not; indeed, it is certain the sort from which our mastiffs and bulldogs are descended, were also similarly employed, and the writer I have referred to appears to me to be wrong when he quotes Oppian's description, "small in size, squat, lean, and shaggy, with blinking eyes and lacerating claws, but mostly prized for their scent in tracking where the foot has passed," against mastiffs having been so used, and asks, "does this description apply to either mastiff or bulldog?" The answer is evident. Oppian was not describing the dog used for bull-baiting, but the beagle, which the Romans so largely exported from Britain for hunting purposes.

    "I do not for a moment think that wolfhound, bulldog, or mastiff, such as the names now cover, were represented at that date except in a rough typical way, and the descriptions handed down to us are far too meagre and widely-scattered to allow the changes that have taken place to be traced with any degree of accuracy, therefore much is necessarily left to conjecture. The great Buff on supposed the mastiff to be "a mongrel generated between the Irish wolfhound and the bulldog, but much larger, and more resembling the latter than the former." Practical dog breeders, with I think good reason, lean to an opposite conclusion - namely, that the Irish wolfhound was a combination of mastiff and greyhound blood; and in that or similar directions all attempts at the resuscitation of that lost variety must be made."¹

    The English Mastiff is considered to be the closest descendant of the Pugnaces Britanniae. But also the EM almost was extinct after World War II and had to be recreated by using different breeds that had English Mastiff blood in their veins. My friends, so I have tryed to find some pics of English Mastiffs for you before the breed was recreated."
     
  10. O.S.O. NAS

    O.S.O. NAS Big Dog

    I do enjoy the reading and more so that Others are seeking deeper then the pics of dogs they heard about growing up that impressed them enough to own hmm well what they own now. It is something few do, research and gaining of Understandings or lack of. Great Share All involved.
     
  11. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Interesting subject, think Floyd B did his homework? He always said keep the reds and breed them back in to your blacks.
     
    ELIAS'PISTOLA likes this.
  12. O.S.O. NAS

    O.S.O. NAS Big Dog

    So many have done just a that
     
  13. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    Tudor looked for that dark Henry phenotype and I never thought Boudreaux was up to something similar,,, made me think twice thanks...
     
  14. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    You ever wonder why Floyd was able to breed so tight and get match dogs ?
     
  15. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    He inbred and got match dogs,think about that.
     
  16. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    I am gone get you to thinkin on that Elias.I have a opinion on this.
     
  17. Robertosilva

    Robertosilva CH Dog

  18. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Good stuff roberta.We know Earl T had some white dogs.Where are the White dogs from Floyds stock , were thier any ?We have even heard Don M speak of them.
     
    Dusty Road likes this.
  19. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    I meant we have heard Don M speak of white dogs from that family.
     
  20. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Speak of whites from the Henry family not Floyds family.
     

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