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the Bandog by Dr Semencic

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by Lee D, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. redrumdog

    redrumdog Top Dog

    Swinford I believe died before he could finish what he started out to do with the Bandog.Swinford worked for a Zoo and was a very smart man with genetics.The people after him say they are breeding Bandogs but they are mixing other breeds together to come up with a dog they call Bandog.I believe that the Bandog died when Swinford died because he never finished his work.Now as for Dr.Carl he wrote to Stratton about Pitbulls a long time ago.Its in one of Strattons books ,the second book I believe.
     
  2. Tiger12490

    Tiger12490 Big Dog

    of course there are people out there that mix dogs together and just call them bandogs but there are ALOT of true people out there that mix dogs witth all intents and purposes on using them to protect home and family there are ALOT of people out there breeding really good bandogs and to say there isnt is like saying there arent people out there breeding true game dogs
     
    Timboteuta1@gmail likes this.
  3. redrumdog

    redrumdog Top Dog

    How can there really be Bandogs if Swinford died before completing his breedings? Who took up the breedings after him? Did they use Swinfords stock?
     
  4. Lee Robinson

    Lee Robinson Big Dog

    Bandogs existed both before and after John Swinford. He used the name "Swinford Bandogge" for the type of bandog he desired in accordance to his breeding standard. After he died, some people continued with his program working with dogs he produced, but eventually all those dogs faded away. The Swinfords that are in existence today are recreated...just as have been many other breeds...this is done by following similar breeding practices and by using the same standard as a guideline.
     
    Timboteuta1@gmail likes this.
  5. sweetscience

    sweetscience Premium Member Premium Member

    i am dating my self, in 1985 i was introduced to an argentine dogo. a guy was walking down the street with this impressive pure white dog and his head and face was scared and marked up, his prescece was captivating and he looked like one tuff sob. i spoke to the guy and he new the entire history and origin of the breed. he used to roll him ampt i watched a tape and saw this dogo roll for thirty to forty minites with a pit. he held his own and scrathed once.i have personally owned two female dogos back in 1986 they are good with humans, a very high prey drive i had a few accidents occur with other dogs, i beleive these dogs thoght they were hunting when they saw dogs cats squirrls cause they would run like crazy to catch the prey. i beleive the breed is waterd down now and i would only go to argintina if i wanted to own one. this breed is not for everyone and need responsible owners a true story, i had a lot of crazy stuff happen but i wont elaborate check out u tube some info on hunting and the breed
     
  6. redrumdog

    redrumdog Top Dog

    Lee I was under the impression that Swinford bred his English Mastiff to Jacks Bob Tail Buddy because he was a gamebred 60lb. plus dog.Which he had his Mastiff artificially inseminated .When the litter was born Swinford named them Ban Dogs and Bantu was out of that litter.Now that was written by Jack Kelly.Now if Bandogs are Neopolitan Mastiff / Pitbull or crossed English Mastiff/Pitbull which some people use different ones how can they be the same breed called Ban Dogs?Who carried on his breedings because I was under the impression that they don't breed true? If you want a big dog for protection work why not just use a Neo? Was the Ban Dog by Swinford bred for fighting or protection work?
     
  7. Lee Robinson

    Lee Robinson Big Dog

    I saw the recent article you refer to and to be honest, I was very disappointed with its total lack of references or substantiation of such claims as to the Swinford Bandogges. One would think they would AT LEAST go back to what was written by Jack Kelly himself some 40 years ago when this stuff was fresh in his mind...as his original writings on Swinford's work was quite contrary to what the recent journal published/claimed. Regardless though, it is probably a good thing as the Swinford bred his dogs for protection work, and not for dog fighting...but he did test several of his dogs in matches.

    Anyway, I saw a recent "title" on the journal that referred to what you wrote...and it stated "big but definitely not game." That claim really has no merit to it based upon reports I have seen and or heard. Of course, Swinford died back in 71, so I was only two years old back then and know nothing as to that matter...and besides, I myself have no interest in game testing dogs as I make an honest and LEGAL living. However, as far as history is concerned...what is illegal today has nothing to do with what some dead man did back many decades ago. So...as far as history is concerned...and only for that reason, I will say...Swinford never claimed his dogs to be game because he didn't have sufficient matches to make such a claim. To make such a claim, one has to have a dog take a punishment while tired...and that never happened with the Bantu. I have heard several reports that Bantu was never beaten in any match, not even by an APBT...however, lets be honest with ourselves here for a minute...Bantu was about twice the size of the catch weight competition...and he was a much tougher dog than most of the "big dogs" on the market at that time in that region. So, as a result, Bantu never found himself on bottom or tired. He won most of his rolls in short order (less than 20 minutes) and without being on the bottom, and therefore it wouldn't be responsible or honest for Swinford to claim the dog was game without seeing how his dog handled stress, heat, exhaustion, etc...and without finding himself on the bottom.

    Of course, being Swinford's primary purpose of the breed was to create a GUARD DOG that that would fight and not "fear anything made of flesh" it was for this purpose of protection work that he wanted to test his dogs heart to see if the dog would work through stress. He did enough testing to see how his dogs handled the stress associated with conflict...as he wanted to know his dogs had enough commitment in them to remain in a conflict in a protective situation.

    Now, as far as "Bantu" is concerned...there were actually TWO dogs that Swinford named Bantu. The first one died at a young age. The Bantu we so often hear of is actually the 2nd Bantu...and was indeed out of Jack Kelly's Bob Tail Buddy (a 2xW). I have some documentation as to how the original Bantu was bred, but I would have to dig it up. It too however was out of one of Jack Kelly's dogs...but I forget who right now. I have a lot of documentation on the original Swinford Program that we have acquired over the years. We haven't put much of it on the internet as we are not able to properly secure our website from internet thieves that like stealing photos to use on their own websites (which has happened a lot with the photos we currently have on our site) without our permission as the photos were given to us in order to accurately document the history of the Swinford Bandogge.

    The backbone of the Swinford program was indeed game bred APBT and English Mastiff; however, some people that were involved in the program brought Neapolitan into the program as well. In some cases it worked well, but Swinford himself tended to prefer the EM over the Neapolitan.

    One of the reasons the dogs "didn't breed true" was because many of the other people involved in the bandog programs would take the dogs back to either APBTs or other crosses...and would end up with dogs that were way too scatterbred without having a good understanding of genetics. With a good understanding of genetics and knowing when to work on a line, when to go tight and when to outcross...consistency is indeed obtainable from the Bandogs.

    Why not just use a Neo you ask. Well, simple. I don't really like loose, lazy, unenergetic and slow dogs that are plagued with health problems. While one can occasionally find a nice specimen, good ones are very rare (regardless of what the general Neapolitan community would like for you to believe). With the rarity they are, it is very difficult for them to reproduce themselves. The cross however works very well, as quality APBT blood is rather good at reviving the dog's nearly lost heritage...that is if one finds the right specimens to work with.

    There are some other reports by Jack Kelly as well where he states..."John's ideas of breeding these dogs was to try to take the desireable qualities of each breed and through selective breeding produce an all-purpose guard dog that was a game fighting dog." And while Jack Kelly himself wasn't a big fan of such large man-aggressive dogs (I have one report where Jack climbed on top of a refrigerator waiting for them to get one of the Swinford Bandogs out of the house). Following this quote, John goes on to say...and I quote, "John would have been the first to admit that his bandogs were not dead game fighting dogs, but he did roll them and several of them were tough hard fighters. The dog on the cover with him is one of the first that John bred. He weighted 127# and would fight like any pit dog. He was never tested in a long hard battle, but he would fight and in addition he was an excellent trained guard dog." In reading this quote, let's notice two things...1. that Bantu would fight like ANY pit dog, and 2. that "dead" game is an adjective to describe a degree of gameness...and such a term coming from someone such as Jack Kelly himself should be sufficient evidence that those knowledgeable of gameness would acknowledge that "gameness" does in fact come in degrees. With that said, I personally have enough evidence to convince myself into believing that the "tough hard fighters" (some of which were undefeated) were reasonably game, but would NOT be deserving a term like "dead game" since none were found in such a situation.

    These quotes come from the July-August issue of the SDJ published in 1972 and can be found on page 11 of that journal. That article was written by Jack Kelly himself. It however is only ONE of many sources of Swinford's program. There is a little reference on page 13 within this same journal that several other members that also bred these types of dogs.



     
  8. redrumdog

    redrumdog Top Dog

    Thanks Lee.Who first started breeding Bandogs before Swinford? Did any of the breeders produce any Bandogs that was considered foundation stock or their own bloodline that produced other dogs worth breeding?
     
  9. Lee Robinson

    Lee Robinson Big Dog

    The name "Bandog" is an old term that originally described a job/function and not a breed or cross.
     
  10. pit7burg

    pit7burg Pup

    i have a 1/2 pit 1/2 english mastiff best dog i ever had very loyal 6 months old and 50 lbs very protective
     
  11. determination

    determination Big Dog

    I would like to own a swinford bandog one day I first noticed them about three years ago and learned a little about them from what I believe is lee Robinson' s site preacher man is a beast from the videos I've seen and his apbt are great at it also
     
  12. BBT

    BBT Big Dog

    One day in the 80's both semancic and Jack Palance were in my living room sitting on couch.
     
  13. jacko

    jacko CH Dog

    why ?...........
     
  14. BBT

    BBT Big Dog

    We had GBAPBT , Dogos, Tosa, etc. Jack was heavy into the Tosas. This is before they were popular here. Carl stopped by I guess just for bs not sure as I was too young to care. I'm pretty sure he stopped by half a dozen times over a few year period. I did read the book when it first came out and had it on my shelf.
    We also had some pro athletes. I am in my mid thirties now. I remember comparing semancic book to Stratton and finding contradictions and questioning them to my father.
     
  15. Ninety-Nine

    Ninety-Nine Big Dog

    The term Bandog or Bandogge is an old name for any large aggressive, mastiff type guard dog held by a chain, tethered, "banded".
     
  16. digdog

    digdog Pup


    Bandogs are a type of dog intended for a purpose (usually protection.) Of course people can simply toss some dogs together and say it's a working breed but there are some breeders out there that are true to their goals. It's how majority of breeds were developed anyway. You've got to start somewhere.
     
  17. fonzie

    fonzie Top Dog

    Very nice read thanks for some info
     
  18. How would a "rank driven" dog who is challenging your leadership, make it easier to train for an "amateur trainer"?
    Here's an in depth article written by a well known Police K9 trainer regarding "rank drive"............

    Rank Drive
     
  19. fonzie

    fonzie Top Dog

    They look like pretty lookn dogs to me
     
  20. Lee Robinson

    Lee Robinson Big Dog

    The rank driven dogs are easier to train in PP/bitework. I was not referring to obedience, but the instead just specifically addressing how rank is easily stimulated to elicit the desired response to challenge and engage.

    The trainer in the above case being the DECOY/AGITATOR, not the handler.
     

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