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outcross

Discussion in 'APBT Bloodlines' started by machobuck, Aug 19, 2010.

  1. magnoilaotis

    magnoilaotis Top Dog

    Purepit I am glad not everyone is as cautious as you. That extra mile the "handler" takes is what shaped today's dogs. Retire Buck before he met Sandman and what do we end up with? Maybe everybody who bred to buck would be feeding sandman dogs not knowing buck was a better dog. Would mayday be the legend he is if not for taking the last match he showed in. It is easy to retire your 1x to 2x winner and declare him the best to ever shit in a yard and whole lot harder to prove. I will end with this most of the time a dog is not taken back out to get his 3rd or 5th not for future breeding purposes alone, but because they don't know if the dog can do it. Why get stopped by better dog when you can retire a 2x'er?
     
  2. mntman2003

    mntman2003 CH Dog

  3. PurePit19

    PurePit19 CH Dog

    I'm not cautious really, I just try my best to preserve the qualities of real bulldogs so that I can get consistent results. For example; I have a bitch that can very possibley make Ch. But, this female is the last of her litter and her mother is also RIP. She is the product of a brother sister breeding and all the siblings of her father are RIP. Now would I be a smart guy if I attempts to take her all the way to CH knowing she can not be reproduced..... So what I'm saying is, the smarter choice in my opinion, would be to breed the said female and use her offspring for working purposes over risking her and her potential to produce. I believe in the preservation of gameness instead of the legacy of a great that I once had. JMO
     
  4. PurePit19

    PurePit19 CH Dog

    I'm sure we all know folks that once had greatness and talk about it all the time. But at the end of the day, what do you as a fancier of the breed have to show for your time dedicated to the breed. Greats dogs don't come often and if I don't have the parents or siblings to that great, then I won't risk his health on showing professionally. But, that's just me.
     
  5. littleblackdog

    littleblackdog Big Dog

    Tab is a prime example of that right there, pick and choose the greats but being honest is the main thing and most people can't look past their own kennel or ped blindness. If you got it, then you got it but it is the same as cards, got know when to hold em and when to fold em. Today you have to be careful, hell 30 years ago, who cared you could have 100 plus dog yards now but today you don't have the same set to be able to really know or replace one because you might only have one or two bred like that. IMO, many times the sibling of a great is not as good as the great himself or herself. Being honest is the key.
     
  6. eddieem

    eddieem Big Dog

    buck and sandman was already retired..when asked what his biggest mistake was over the years rebel kennels said to bring sandman back out at such a old age..they where both already gr ch...he was more valuable as a stud dog...after this fight no one was passing on sandman bred dogs..they both proved to be top notch
     
  7. PurePit19

    PurePit19 CH Dog

    " you gotta know when to hold them and when to fold them" I like that saying!!!;)

    The purpose is to produce better and better each time, if the greats keep dying faster than they can produce, then what are we left with in the end.....
     
  8. magnoilaotis

    magnoilaotis Top Dog

    I am not doubting the quality of sandman, but buck was better on that night. Also I am all for retiring a dog for breeding purposes. Bloodlines are made in one place before they are made in the brood pen. All of these lines we try to find and preserve were once individuals with exceptional performance records. Honeybunch was a champion before she was the top producing bitch and so was jeep.
     
  9. mntman2003

    mntman2003 CH Dog

    thats why we collect seman
     
  10. eddieem

    eddieem Big Dog

    I agree with you mag...these are working dogs..i have no use for "brood stock" dogs...but there are times when the value of a dog to the future of our breed is greater in the pen and not the box
     
  11. littleblackdog

    littleblackdog Big Dog

    I am with you guys, brood stock is bs for the most part, dogs that are inbred have produced and but how many dogs are like this out there now days and ain't 3/4 of them done a dang thing except produce a pretty colorful pedigree for people to post on peds online. LOL. Give me a linebred dog with good dogs over some inbred papered dog considered brood. eddieem, the whelping box with a pedigree will never over power a true working dog in my eyes but to each his own. A good example of someone using good dogs that weren't fancy bred was mason, ugliest SOBs to ever walk the earth but Mason would hand those big named pedigrees and dogmen their a$$ in heartbeat. That was a man breeding for working dogs not producers or brood but his producers came as he was finish working. Your producers will come along just fine long as they are working dogs. Just got to know when to say when, a dog only can clock in at work for so many hours before retirement is around the corner and very few dogs can do sandman / buck deals. Your gut as a dogman must tell you it is time to let him or her, live the good life. For every 10 real real good dogs you own, one producer is bound to come from it, if your foundation is honest, the dog gods have to smile on a hardworking dogman eventually. Stay honest work hard and fock brood stock!

    But then on the other hand dogs like molly bee that don't have a lot of offspring out there, what do you do there? Inbred the crap out of them and hope for the best, double edged sword.
     
  12. eddieem

    eddieem Big Dog

    good post..agreed.."brood stock" is a peddlers terms IMO
     
  13. PurePit19

    PurePit19 CH Dog

    People have a different opinions on what a " brood" dog is.... To me abroad dog, does not mean unproven with a pretty pedigree, to me it mean a tested dog that is used for breeding. Not to be in the pro show ring or rolled every month, hell, the pedigree doesn't have to be pretty, just good enough to breed into my program. I do not believe in untested brood dogs. JMO
     
  14. gameexchange

    gameexchange Big Dog

    I believe "EVERYTHING" has to be checked. Not saying everything has to go out to the woods but "EVERYTHING" has to be checked. I used to have a guy that would breed dogs and keep the whole litter and if there were 10 born, granted from good parents, by the time that litter made 18 months there may have only been 2 left out of the whole litter but you knew one thing, those too were the baddest and toughest from the litter and they could hang with the big guns and nothing less. You cant get better dogs or like dogs if you dont know what kind of dog you have to begin with. People buy puppies everyday for pretty peds and spend 700+ dollars and look at it as an investment especially if its a female. Man I was told "A JEALOUS MAN CANT WORK FOR FEAR OF LOSING HIS WOMAN AND A SCARED MAN CANT GAMBLE." This hobby is all about gambling it aint for ya if you're scared to gamble and lose a bit. As for outcrossing I feel like there's times to do it and times not to even worry about it. If you have two parent because that's truthfully all you need, and together they give you the total package time and time again through breedings well you have what you need to go to the woods with. Outcross when what you have is too tight and when you're lacking something in your dogs
     
  15. primer

    primer Big Dog

    I do not understand people who do not like or thanks brood stock is wrong because it dosent produce working dogs. with out it you cant preserve the blood.just because brood stock dosent work like crossed blood. dosent mean it dosent produce it tight blood of one line bred to a nother tight blood will produce high % every time. we all know that champs have produced nothing some have. and cold dogs have produced a lot.with that being said! sounds like the gene is being preserved in that dog that will not go on a hunt.me I will breed a cold female but not a cold male even though it has been done and worked. and just because a person breeds brood stock dosent make him or her a puppy mill or just pretty peds.The ped is for the next man to know how the dogs where bred so he know how to breed it even though we know the old timer hung papers on some dogs that is all we have to go by unless u now someone who was there and nows the breeding not everyone has that.I hate when people say that people are breeding for pretty peds. if you have tab dogs he wouldent go irene was cold,rascal lost one, bullyson. all the dogs of today were built off breeding so many don't like. and talk bad about,but from what i see is the strongest lines of todoy are the ones that was bred tight and family breedings
     
  16. primer

    primer Big Dog

    I thank best to best you end up with scatter bred unless it is best to best with in the same family
     
  17. eddieem

    eddieem Big Dog

    i agree with that some...i just think to many people get caught up in breeding pure redboy or what ever and they arent honest with the dogs...if your breeding a bunch of dogs with faults then who cares how many times its redboy or eli...i guess like all dogs its the person behind the dogs. I rather get my dogs off stock thats been looked over..cause ive had dogs off proven parents and they didnt make the cut..i think your chances go down when you breeding just for tight peds...ALOT OF PEOPLE DO THIS..breed for peds
     
  18. PurePit19

    PurePit19 CH Dog

    People get lucky sometimes and yea nothing is guarantied when you do a breeding, but the repeated breedings of non performers will eventually get you a shit load of non performers. Most heavily inbred dogs don't perform above average anyway, but they have to at least do something worthy in the show ring. Your not just eating, shitting and pissing..... Sorry but I just can't deal with that. JMO
     
  19. pitbullkid86

    pitbullkid86 Big Dog

    Correct me if I'm wrong but many of em heavy inbred hounds have difficulty producing??
     
  20. Padlock

    Padlock Banned

    brood dogs are just a catalyst to bring your line with you into the next generation.
    dogs don't live that long. you make brood dogs sound like dirty whores with herpes.
    it's a numbers game,...it's not rocket science.
    well bred curs will drop game stock,...game aces will drop curs...numbers will elevate
    your chances at getting ch.'s. brood stock allows you to do this. if we could pin point
    a game gene it would've been done already. that's not how breeding works.
     

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