Myth's behind some famous dogs

FRANK ROCCA SPEAKS ABOUT MYTH'S BEHIND SOME FAMOUS DOGS(lots of good history)

Mr.Frank Rocca (maybe,nothing sure),"Tommy, as I mentioned, had some world famous dogs including the dam and maternal grand dam of the immortal CH Honeybunch ROM, Shire's (Carver's) Amber, and Shire's (Trahan's) Beauty Tee. As what has happened many other times, another breeder gets his name on any dog he ever touches that does well, then history is recorded while time devours truth. His photos and exploits appeared throughout Pete Spark's sporting magazine of mid-20th century fame called Your Friend And Mine which folded in the mid 1960's and was reintroduced in the mid 1990's by one of my peers, Terry Williams, of the famous southwest Smith & Walton's GRCH badger camp with Badger's 4th only lasting 0:04, and also had his brother CH Fox and their sire Reuben ROM. The above is the same B. Smith who had the 5 x winner CH Bad Billy and many more notable Bulldogs. In the early 1990's Tommy became afflicted with a severe asthmatic condition, which led to more
serious problems affecting his heart. He was faced with changing a comfortable lifestyle that offered much reward in many ways, but he broke ale the "RULES" anyway and somehow still managed to see old age. I suppose Tommy had figured he could live for a short while, facing a proposal of a miserably unfulfilled life, and then still die from something else hiding around the next corner from an ill and old man. Instead, he opted to enjoy his life in somewhat of a Hedonistic fashion, which partly explains why we got along well. He related some interesting stories to me during our many telephone conversations, tales unravelling some mysteries concerning the roots of the modern AMERICAN 'PIT' BULL TERRIER we think we know today.

Tommy explained to me why the “Honeybunch” strain neither looks , performs, nor behaves like what we see in most of the other typically famous “Bullyson” stock (i.e. Loposay’s Buster ROM and Davis’ Midnight Cowboy , ect). I have been around long enough to have seen dog come down the old Bordeaux family by way of the likes of Walling’s Bullyson, Clayton’s Eli Jr, Davis’ Midnight Cowboy, Jack Carver’s Night Train, Jordan’s Sassy, ect… ; and I did see some exceptions to what were regarded as the rules concerning a contrast on either end of some spectrum considered absolute, when the only reality is within itself, ourselves, them. A natural succession from choice, action, reaction (cause and effect), with more choices as a result. Typically, dogs of the 1970’s down from Bordeaux’ Eli were from above average to large size, mostly black in colour, usually aggressive in manner and generally wielded plenty mouth. Also during that
period (1970) they had the reputation of being “top dogs”, meaning they would appear game providing they could remain ahead and on top, but reputedly would not stay in the heat of the action for very long I they were put way behind or deadlocked in a marathon ( which was never an easy task). Again such is categorising and did not hold true for all, and the same can be said for all the high ability strains. I stress this point because Floyd Bordeaux and his son Guy are personal friends of mine who are men deserving of respect, two of the few “good guys” remaining.

For my money, whatever Mr Bordeaux tells me about Gamedogs I will believe, but I will go on later to relate some amusing stories hovering over these rugged Bulldogs that camp up out of the swamps. Hence, selectivity utilized through the hands of scientific, as well as instinctive breeders who proceeded many of us and the modern bulldog world realized a transformation of a few hard mouthed destroyers into a high percentage of pit game individuals with normal to above average ability, with many showing the gameness we all look for in a game bred breed. By today’s standards, as opposed with what we had to examine 20 odd years ago, the “Eli” strain has become on of the top competition strains in the world. What were once thought to be A-typical (game) Bullyson dog are no longer a rarity, partly accredited to the infusion of other lineages, and especially because of discriminative breedings still being practised by some of our top dogmen, including Mr
Floyd Bordeaux’ modern vision, e.g. the Maverick dogs, plus the respected linage down from John Shivar’s (Loposay’s) Buster ROM which some say was a cold dog and others claim he won 1 match. Rumour had it back in the 1970’s that Carver registered 26 dogs from the 2 litters of Bullyson x Art’s Missy pups from which Bobby Hall shows a photo of owner Art Riley holding the only six pups from the 1st breeding in his 1st book Bullyson and His Sons, Walsworth Press Inc, 1986. A few of the offspring that I could find on pedigrees, meaning more than likely dogs that matured into adults worth breeding are Loposay’s (Shivar’s) Buster ROM, Raymond Holt’s 2XW Jeremiah, D Hudson’s dead game 2XW Tex, the Kemmer’s great stud Macho, Perry’s White Missy, Hyde’s Spade, M Carver’s Belle, Carver’s Black Missy, J Carver’s Nasan, Bordeaux’ Pushrod and Ramsey’s CH Arty. All I personally know of these dogs mentioned is that they were probably
good dogs that apparently were worth using in successful breeding programs, because they in fact were as their offspring would gladly show.

At this point I will ad a sworn statement from an unnamed but highly respected dogman in the gamedog world regarding the mystique of the Eli dogs, one who is still very much alive. The true sire of Eli Jr and Bullyson (according to another reliable source who is an old timer) was a large black dog Maurice Carver had owned and called Colonel, whose breeding was unknown to the general fraternity, that even the reputable Mr Bordeaux had not heard of this story until years later. Another famous dogman insists to this day that Eli was bred by D Mayfield from the Langham’s Little Cotton to Evelyn Start’s Cry Baby litter and that Eli and another from that breeding were sold to S Sykes . Still another old-time, highly respected breeder of the Corvino strain tells an amusing story of how the real sire of Eli Jr and Bullyson was a black Great Dane, which he says explains the transformation from small size and average ability dogs that were inbred on
Bordeaux’ Blind Billy , to the huge, aggressive, hard biting, black animals we saw in the 1970’s. Eli won 2 at 37lbs (not counting the timeframe during which he was stolen) and the foundation dog of that line, Blind Billy was a light yellow buckskin. Eli’s son’s were nearly twice his size, man aggressive and black in colour, which of course means next to nothing. Eli Jr won 2 at 51lbs and his tightly bred belly brother Bullyson was advertised as the best 50 – 54lbs dog in the world, which probably added to the doubt of their pedigree by some. I wish I could have bred to that so-called Great Dane, because for my money it could not matter less what the sire was, providing he can produce American Game dogs like those two brothers. Then another tremendously respected breeder, another who is still among us, claims that the infamous brothers were really sired by Eli, but that they still had another black, hard biting, aggressive ½ brother from a
litter sired during the time period when the old Eli dog was stolen and used as stud in the Southern USA, one later to be known as GRCH Zebo ROM (Lonzo’s Andy x Lonzo’s Angie), a tremendous dog that was sold by Lonzo to the Old Mountain Man without papers. The above is a story of friends of the late, great Mr Bob Wallace of the Old Family Reds of the Lightner strain say he went to his grave believing that story about Zebo being a Bordeaux’ bred dog being true.

The Andy x Angie litter had a red male named E. Adams’ Tush, red bitches named Brewer’s Rosie and Lonzo’s Lena, and with Zebo’s most famous brother a red red-nosed 2XW called Brewer’s Vindicator. Strangely enough, although Zebo was used as a stud countless times to bitches of nearly every variation of pigmentation under the sun, including to red red-nosed bitches (Cherry Bomb for one to produce a great litter of black dogs), yet to my knowledge he never sired anything but black dogs, although black dogs came through his sire Lonzo’s Andy like Greenwood’s Oakie. Later the Eli and Zebo blood was mixed with some important dogs like Clemmen’s Nigger Toby, Clemmon’s Zee, Boudreaux’ Huey, and one of the all time Aces in Mcgee’s Panther. Although I do find it interesting that such controversy surrounded this strain, regardless, all the fuss could probably be accredited to the stigma this bloodline established from just one litter of only
fout pups, the two males being Eli Jr and Bullyson, with two bitches, Lady and Brendy. One of the sisters, Clemmon’s Brendy made her mark as a producer even though she lost while in the hands of the very capable D. Adams. Adams claimed that the reason she lost is because she was conditioned in Ohio, and then brought way up to the thin air of the Southern mountains and could not breath well. The inbreeding of Brendy to her brother Eli Jr produced the sire of Crenshaw’s CH Rascal ROM, one which also had his pedigree refuted by a man named Harris (in an article printed in the Sporting Dog Journal in the 1980’s, named Carver’s Black Shine, and littermates Raymond & Sharon holt’s Junkyard, Cumming’s Eli III, Clemmon’s Soso and also a washed out looking black & tan type bitch I saw rolled in a barn immediately after GRCH Art’s 7th over the dead game Cumper’s Polar named Ginger while owned by Adams. In October of 1980 I bred Cherri Bomb to
the proven Ace Zebo not really caring how he was bred, but instead interested in his own outstanding abilities showing himself to be a King amongst princes. As of the mid 1980’s, I too imbued my own bloodlines with the Eli stock through Bullyson and his brother Eli Jr for the mouth and intensity these dogs were known for also, but on the whole, most of my current dogs carry a good bit of the supposedly unrelated Carver bred Honeybunch blood. If most of that last sentence sounds very absurd, a little interesting, a lot confusing, quite possible and relative to circumstances on your own yard, please read on. Please keep in mind what we already know for sure, and that is RUMORS ARE MERELY THAT. Many will disagree with the following, some could not care less, and I cannot attest to any of this as being proof positive, but most of what unravels at the very least seems quite likely and may make for a good read on a grey day.

According to the records kept by one of the most proficient, prolific and personable breeders of APBT that history has offered to us so far, Mr Maurice Carver, his records shows CH Honeybunch ROM as being sired by Walling’s (Carver’s / Hall’s) Bullyson x Carver’s (Shire’s) Amber, with Amber being out of Carver’s (Trahan’s / Shire’s) Beauty Tee. Tommy Shire phoned me a few months before his death to tell me what he swore to be the truth. He considered me a friend, a reasonably honest dogman, and respected my endeavours at appearing fairly versed. He also knew of my hunger for knowledge and quest for truth. In that light of comradeship and understanding, Tommy pointed out a few bits of information that he made me swear I would not reveal until after he was gone. He felt that what he knew to be the truth should be revealed, but understandably so did not want to deal with the possible repercussions from people, who, practically speaking,
could not pose a genuine argument due to them not being involved in APBT back then, or even born yet, but would try anyhow. Following a statement meant to be enlightening, not insulting, he aimed to set some of the records straight for those of us who are historians and truth seekers; we who admire the gameness of a breed more than exploits embellished by any controversial dog’s breeder / owner / handler. Or is it about half? First, I will stress the point that whatever the genetic make-up is of a dog used generations ago, after a few more generations of selective breeding, it becomes a matter of what is at hand that really counts.

Mr Shire assured me that the real sire of Honeybunch was Carver’s CH Iron Head 4XW. He insisted that that he was present when the breeding was made and later saw the litter nursing of Amber while on Carver’s Yard. His guess at the main reason the papers were modified (if they were) was due to the fact that Eli dogs were a hot commodity at that time because of the biting power of Eli Jr and Bullyson, meaning the Bullyson pups would sell faster and command a higher price in a highly competitive market of trends and fads because of the unusually hard mouth with the Eli dogs of that time. But mostly, many of the top breeders executed their respective breeding programs through secrecy, most not wanting their competition to know their recipe, while some others merely liked to trick people for one reason or the next and would rather lie where the truth would fit better. Tommy also stated that the real sire of Davis’ GRCH Boomerang ROM was also the
mysterious Carver’s CH Iron Head. Mr Bordeaux was also quoted in an interview, which states that Carver admitted to his friends that CH Iron Head was the true sire of Boomerang. According to the paperwork, some of Boomerang’s littermates were Willie Brown’s CH Nell, Petronelli’s Fox 2XW and Art’s Missy. Another great dog of Davis’ coming from Carver was CH Chivo that was shown in early pedigrees as being bred by Hunter, then later he appeared in pedigrees written by Carver as being a son of Bullyson. At this point I should interject an excerpt from an conversation between Mr Davis and I regarding his GRCH Boomerang. I phoned down south in the mid 1970’s to breed my Cherri Bomb to Boomerang. I had explained to Mr Davis that I could not find a tight Lightner male to line breed her to and expressed my interest in loosely line breeding to the Trahan’s Rascal blood in Boomerang through his sire Carver’s Pistol. His answer was “son,
you’re welcome to breed to ol’ Boomer but Pistol is not really his sire and since I didn’t breed the dog I can’t change his papers, but he is a real GRCH and a good producer.

The unique pigmentation (mask) found on some of the Boomerang strains indicates a possible close relation to the mongrel appearance of Iron Head, which was once that looked much more like a mixed breed than either Eli Jr or Bullyson. Honeybunch dogs also generally are buckskin with a black tail (or ring in the center), black hairs peppered throughout the neck and ears and a black or faded mask. Tommy asked me why Maurice Carver had a funeral monument built in Iron Head’s honor, yet the dog did not appear frequently on the pedigrees of brood dogs he and his associates were winning with. “Why” would be a fair question, keeping in mind other secret Carver pedigrees which were revealed by his wife Pat after Maurice’s death. One prime example that comes to mind is when a man that is known for his honesty and integrity Norman Hooten revealed the true pedigree of the sire of Wood’s Snooty ROM and other good dogs registered from Hooten’s Snake.
Carver showed Snake as being from Iron Head x Miss Spike, but Mr Hooten did correctly by showing the original pedigree as he knew it from the parents of his own Snake dog as being Hooten’s CH Butcher Boy x Carver’s One Eye. In Hooten’s 1st match he used Butcher Boy to smash Kennedy’s Booger Red in 0:36. CH Butcher Boy won his 4th 1:25 at 57lbs and was bred by Frank Fitzwater who was said to be a son of the notorious Missouri outlaw Jesse James. Now, obviously both pedigrees are made up of sound Carver dogs and each would have spawned marketable puppy sales, but the thing of it is that Carver freely admitted that he would sell a man a good dog but not the recipe. Besides being one of the most highly respected individuals in the game, nationally feared as a competitor and breeder and yes, obviously the most liked dogman of his time. I also admire Mr Carver for still managing to be a topic of conversation all these years after his death; and even
though most people agree that Carver did play with papers, his blood is still the highest regarded and widely acclaimed of any other. I may not agree with some of his methods, but my hat goes of to him as being a respected man amongst real men. I almost feel guilty writing these things, but thinking that I understand his character I believe that part of his reasoning behind shuffling paperwork was to have people like me writing about his great and mysterious dogs while people like you are reading this, believing most or at least some of these tales and then all of us going out to get some more af that good, old Carver blood (?) of which my own yard is full of in the 90’s. But, I still feel this is a proper place to reiterate the fact that no matter what method’s Mr Carver used, weather I agree with this methods or not, or if I believe any of these epic tales which surrounded his grandiose lifestyle, pure documented fact through “the proof is in
the pudding) shows that he was probably the premiere breeder and personality of the 20th century and probably will continue to be, way behind our own times. The Carver strain, as we know it today, is probably dosed with the blood of Bordreaux Eli, Trahan’s Rascal, Hernandez’ (Klaus’) Zeke, carver’s Iron Head, Carver’s Pistol, Carver’s Black Widow, Carver’s Miss Spike, Art’s Missy and countless others, many heavily influenced by the good Lightner stock from Ed Crenshaw through Snow, Freddy Jones’ Reno and McKay’s (Crenshaw’s Stu Flower. Infusions from the yards of Russel Jolley, Jack Thompson and many other western breeders of that era who were less known but nevertheless made for, or had partaken in the evolution of the fast lane game in the South-Western portion United State of America and Mexico along with formidable charges of Enrique Morfin.

Mr Shire also posed another interesting question to me. He asked me to name any littermates of Honeybunch. Now it was not that Tommy had a yard full of Iron Head dogs and was trying to make his own charges appear bigger than life, or to sell high dollar pups and charge outlandish stud fees from his old stock .The fact is that at the time of Tommy’s death, most of his interest was consumed by the Jenkins and / or Barefield bred dogs. Tommy had a game checked, bat eared, black and tan bitch called Cricket that he loved and was of tight Jenkins stock. During our last conversation he expressed a great interest in out crossing her to my Stonewall who was a product of a ½ brother to sister breeding from Honeybunch. He was amongst the first litter from B&S GRCH Snake to a littermate t Crenshaw’s CH Charlie, Sweatman’s CH Holly and Garret’s CH Jeep ROM, one at times called Crenshaw’s CH Missy. The grandparents of my Stonewall were: Crenshaw’s CH
Otis ROM, CH Honeybunch ROM, Finley’s CH Bo ROM, CH Honeybunch ROM. Anyway, I was to judge a show in Cajun country in 1993 and made plans with him over the phone to carry his gyp Cricket home with me, both of us hoping she would eventually come into oestrus. When I arrived in Louisiana and asked if Tommy would be attending the conformation show again, like the last time I judged there when Mr Floyd Bordeaux gave me the honour of acting as my ring steward. Ms Jean Carpenter, who is the president of the non-profit Endangered Breed Association and helps out at the Cajun conformation show, informed me at the conformation show in Lafayette of Tommy’s recent death. Our last phone conversation was ironic, to say the least. Tommy cautioned me to “pay attention son, because I’m only gonna tell you these things once, so write it all down”, so I listened and wrote, so I could write for you to read as he wanted it to be. Once again, I take editorial
privilege at playing the Devil’s advocate, which means that throughout this text I will be both prosecutor and defence, showing both sides of each.

I also mentioned to Tommy how an associate of the seemingly unbeatable V&B’ CH Chinaman ROM team told us at the wash bucket in front of a small crowd how they never had any registration papers on him and then was given away as a CH, having no idea how he was bred. Later the story by others was he was sired by Crenshaw’s CH Tojo, meaning somewhere between his 1st roll and changing hands he somehow (supposedly) acquired another set of registration papers showing him of Wood’s Trouble (aka Hooten’s Black Jack). Naturaly, by this time it does not matter much, because CH Chinaman ROM was one of the most outstanding athletes ever and has created a winning bloodline of his own. Chinaman won his first at 0:28, 2nd in 0:48, then his Championship at 5 years of age over another fast lane 2XW named Hubcap that had defeated CH Astro and finally a 4th at 6 years old in only 0:38. CH Chinaman ROM was bred to one of his own daughters to get Garner’s Frisco
ROM, a dog that has proven to out produce his own capable sire in the form of many winners world wide. A double irony with Frisco is in how his dam is bred, Vince’s China Girl. Her dam was Hobb’s Tuffy, a grand daughter of Patrick’s Tuffy, which was another producing Patrick’s bitch through her owner J. Hobbs, reveals in Your Friend And Mine May-June Vol1#3 her true pedigree. So here we have a case scenario where an inbred dog has created a line of his own. Frisco ROM has shown as a matter of record his knack of siring many high performance Bulldogs, I know Mr Garner had anything to do with hanging papers (if done at all) on Chinaman and doubt a falsified a 3rd report on CH Missy. Still and all, I find these bits of trivia interesting, as I know many others will as well. Again, this was not brought up to slander anyone. Realistically, if someone come up with a legitimate story which conflicted some of my own old charges like Cherry Bomb or
stonewall, I would listen, weigh it out and take it for what it was worth. After all, I did not breed either one of those cornerstones of my kennel, so how could I ever be sure unless I saw the breeding, the whelping and the weaning. Anyway other way is nothing more than hearsay with every pedigree, unless I made all the breedings for four generations, kept all of the dogs used to perpetuate that blood in question and above all else remained as honest as humanly possible. Some other people who had heard that same story assured me that the breeding in question to create CH Chinaman really did take place. They asked: “How could Chinaman have littermates with papers if his was fake?” Well if those people asking that question really needed a situation like that explained to them, then it is evident how they are in for many self-induced surprises throughout their lives. But again, there is no way to know which story is real, so I am inclined to believe
his pedigree now, as it conforms his type, character and the way his progeny is performed.None of us that has this breed will ever know the true breeding of the dogs behind them.Mr.Ed Crenshaw said that Ironhead had a mask that carryed on in his offspring.I started with some dogs that were said to be of Snooty/Jeep breeding,I can say that these dogs are of that breeding because I get offspring that look just like these two dogs.I also have them come with the mask of Ironhead.I have inbred an outcrossed them with some dogs that came from the breedings that Supper Gnat made.

 

Claiming an otherwise hard work. Supposedly owning dogs that you've never had. Falsifying pedigrees. Have seen shows where the one who claims to have been there wasn't. Lying about ages of dogs. Steal from someone else's medical kit. Do not pay bets. Falsely accusing another of poisoning dogs. And worse I've seen dogs come by in almost 30 years.

 

I have had my doubts about Bullyson being the Sire of Honey Bunch. Other people in the game told me I just did not know what I was talkin about So I kept it to myself from there on out. now lronhead makes a lot more sense.

 

boy oh boy doesnt it sound familiar

 

My gosh, that may be the best read I have ever taken in.

 

Probably nowadays much worser than in the past. Thanks to the internet."On the internet, you can be anything you want. It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid." It’s now all about how you take it. Lies everywhere. I smell lies everyday….

 

There was a time when the dogs matter most. Then came the internet and it put more value on the pedigree. In the late 80 and early 90 I can't recall much talking about pedigrees. Late 90 till now first thing folks talk is pedigree. It is what it is

 

I feel like the dog is the key essential part, however, beyond that, the pedigree comes into play. I want to know what they're off of, in hopes of knowing what you're working with. If I see a lot of rom and ch/gr ch notations, it definitely gives you more hope. Especially if I'm buying something unproven, or from an unknown breeder. However, I'm part of that class you referenced in your last statement, beginning in the early/mid 90s. So I can't say you're wrong!