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Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

Discussion in 'SBT History' started by Vicki, Jan 24, 2010.

  1. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Staff Member

    Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    The reason for my writing this article, is because we have all heard of "Jocko" and most of us have read about how good he was in his days back in Ireland, but what most newcomers fail to realise are the contributory factors that made the dog so good.

    Obviously there is conditioning and nutrition, but I'm not going to start with these subjects as there are other people that know more than I do in respect of that.

    What I am concerned with, is breeding. Breeding is a major part in producing a great dog and one such great dog, which people rarely talk about, is Tony Lee's "Max".

    A lot of people talk about Ch."Stormer" and how he beat Ch."Psycho", but there was more to that match than met the eye, which I will go into at a later date.

    There's no doubt that Ch."Stormer" was a good fighter, but it takes more than being a good fighter to make a great dog. A dog must also be able to pass on his "game" genes, which as past match reports have proved, Ch."Stormer" has not. Not only did Ch."Psycho" pass on "game" genes to his sons and daughters, but they too have passed on "gameness" again.

    Lee's "Max" was a dead-game son of Ch."Psycho" over a dead-game bitch called Lee's "Cykes". As well as producing "Jocko", "Max" also had a part in producing a Champion and a Grand Champion, namely Ch."Sunny" and Gr.Ch."Ned".

    Ch."Sunny" was out of Ch."Billy Brokentail" over a bitch called "Kelly", and "Kelly" was out of "Max" over a pitbull called Howe's "Gypsy".

    Gr.Ch."Ned" was out of Ch."Billy Brokentail" over a bitch known as Connor's "White Bitch". This bitch was in-bred, with "Max" going across his own mother Lee's "Cykes"

    There are some that say Lee's "Cykes" had as much to do with "Max" being such a good dog as Ch."Psycho" did. Both "Max" and his mother "Cykes" were proven dead-game, with "Max" going 2.20, he scratched, then died on his way home. "Cykes" went 1.30 and scratched, then died the following day. So I'm told, "Cykes" last scratch was particularly game and the owner remarked that he'd never had a Stafford of her like since. Both "Max" and "Cykes" lost their only matches, but lost them in unquestionable order. To a breeder, it doesn't matter whether a dog wins or loses, but in what fashion they do it. These matches took place in Ireland many years ago.

    In my opinion, Lee's "Max" has to be one of the best, if not "the" best producing Stafford dog of modern times. Some of the credit though, would have to go to his mother "Cykes".

    As pedigree's go, "Jocko's" is particularly interesting, being a son of "Max" and coming through a bitch called "Blaze", which was also known as Lee's "Collie". "Blaze" was a half-sister to Ch."Psycho", coming through "Major" over M. Kain's "Bitch", that was out of Walsh's "Whitey" ("Major's" sire). This makes the "Major" x M. Kain's "Bitch" a half-brother/sister mating.

    If you have been sold a line-bred dog, then you should be able to go through the pedigree, and find dogs related to one another with a common ancestor in both the sire and dam.

    Most "Psycho" bred dogs are line-bred on on Ch."Psycho". In other words, "Psycho" is in their pedigree's more than once. But when I use a stud dog, I am not really thinking of "Psycho" any more, because the likes of "Max" and "Jocko" are considered by those who saw them go to be better than "Psycho" (a statement in itself)"Jocko" is now gone, but will be remembered as a very good 2 x W going 1.57 and 0.57.

    If we look at "Apollo's" pedigree, he is obviously line-bred on Ch."Psycho" but also on Lee's "Max". "Apollo" is out of "Jocko" over Simon's "Tara" and she is out of a very good Irish import called "Ricky", who is out of "Hagler II" over a good bitch called "Judy" and she is a daughter to "Max" (all winning Staffords)

    The main thing in being a good breeder I think, is to have some knowledge of the dogs in your pedigree, so that you will know if the stud dog you're going to use is going to click with the existing dogs in your pedigree. Some breeders believe that just breeding best to best is as good as anything. This means that the dogs in the pedigrees may have nothing to do with one another, but doing it this way, means that every dog in the pedigree must be well proven, because there is more chance of one particular dog coming through, if there's one that is not "game" or not "proven". To clarify:- Each good dog in a best to best breeding has a lot of other dogs in their pedigrees, brothers, sisters, etc. Say for example, your dog may be called "Tom" and he is a very good dog. But "Tom" may have a litter brother called "Charlie" who is a "cur". So when "Tom" goes across a good bitch he may throw more of "Charlie's" genes, which might give you more "cur" dog than good dog in the pedigree. In my opinion, there is less chance of this happening with a line-bred dog because you are breeding through a common ancestor, such as "Psycho", "Max", "Jocko" or whatever the case may be.

    My opinion is not the only one in respect of breeding and there will be some that will agree and some that will not. "Whatever", I know that what I have said makes sense and may in some way help to enlighten people in their understanding of the subject.

    your's in the dogs 'Simon'

    From The Bull and Terrier Times Magazine
     
  2. andrewp35

    andrewp35 Pup

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    Nice article:)
     
  3. pit4ever

    pit4ever Banned

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    had fun reading the story . thanks for the great thread all the time 3MTA3
     
  4. Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    i second that
     
  5. TwistedMettle

    TwistedMettle Big Dog

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    Does a great dog really have to pass his genes to be even greater? If Michael Jordan's son does not live up to the caliber his father was, is Michael Jordan not "that" great?

    I believe greatness is determined by the accomplishment of the individual dog not his genes. If a great dog does not throw "accomplished" offspring, then he is not a "Producer".... but he cannot be be counted out as being a "true" great who could have been "greater."

    I understand that the original article DID NOT refer to Stormer as being "NOT GREAT".... but who here thinks "true" greatness MUST INCLUDE THE ABILITY TO PRODUCE?

    Was Alexander III of Macedon, Martin Luther King or Babe Ruth ..."not that great" because they do not have well known off spring? Is George Bush greater than the above because he was the United States President and was able to have a son who also became President?

    Just open for discussion...both Stormer and Physco are legends IMO.....
     
  6. general

    general Big Dog

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    the reason stormer did not pass on his great genes........is because he had no great genes to pass on .....he quit in a match but ye dont hear that story on the internet :D
     
  7. sunbeam

    sunbeam CH Dog

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    stormer did not quit in a match as far as i am aware. he did i am reliably told quit in his schooling.
     
  8. Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    I understood as well he was bred only once to a Reid bred bitch called kimba
    1 breeding doesn't say much of a producing career wouldn't it
     
  9. mixed-grill

    mixed-grill Big Dog

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    All said and done Stormer was probably a better dog than any owned by those posting on this thread
     
  10. maxwell

    maxwell Pup

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    Stormer was mated to Tess..(skipper x Lady ), he quit as a very young dog to D R's Red..
     
  11. apollo67

    apollo67 Pup

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    Ime sorry but i have just joined and i came accross this article and i'me afraid this chap has completely missed the point, i was not talking about people, i was talking about dogs and you can't compare the two as this brings up all sorts of issues ie- line breeding, in-breeding which are used in dogs, horses and birds just to name a few,
    if we started talking about in-breeding with people, it would cause an uproar, now would'nt it.
    Also, if "you" had a racehorse that had won 20 top class races and "i" had a horse of different breeding that had also won 20 equaly top class races then i would say your horse and mine were there abouts the same,
    but lets say we both bred our steeds and in my line my horse produced 5 more offspring that all proved themselves on the track and your steed produced sh 1 te (they proved that some would race but were rubish and most would'nt would'nt race at all) as stormers offspring did, then pray tell me now, who has the truly great animal.
    Thanks yours in dogs simon.
     
  12. bauer

    bauer Top Dog

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    Nice read...
     
  13. Finito

    Finito Big Dog

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    S,be good to hear on them staffords you were around & hearing some honest opinions.
    For what it is worth,i think all the negative opinions i've read over the years is taking an helluva lot away from Stormer as those who seen him,claim him to have been a very good dog.
    Pretty sure that D told me that Stormer was under a year old when he stopped. Reasonable excuse.......yes
    I have a pic here of a gentleman from the past holding a pup,claimed to be from a different Stormer mating. Do i know it to be true.....no
    Can anyone tell me the name of the son of Stormer,who killed him in a kennel fight ?
     
  14. apollo67

    apollo67 Pup

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    All i can say is when i was active in the dogs there was a whole lot of made up stuff about stormer and this helped ruin his name.
    Like it or not, the fact is if stormer did'nt feel like it he deffinately had quit in him and that is not me talking but two separate people that had the dog,
    But on his day he was a match for anything his weight.
    Stormer was a one off, a good outcross from a very good staff to an english bull that would scrap and in this you sometimes get what is called hibrid vigor that comes from the new blood, but this is a slim chance at best as there is as much chance of getting rubbish from further back in the ebt's pedigree.
    I don't remember that stormers son killed him, not saying it is'nt true but it does sound like one of the glam stories that people tried to put about.
    It seems very much like how psycho died.
    I learned to have a game pup, get yourself a line bred propper game bitch and use a proven dog from the same line and your well on your way to a good dog.
    Stormer did'nt have this and in my opinion thats why he could'nt produce.
     
  15. apollo67

    apollo67 Pup

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    thanks pal,it seems a long time ago.
     
  16. tamthebam

    tamthebam Big Dog

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    Finito you might be thinking of the Psycho dog who was killed by his son Moonshine,
     
  17. Finito

    Finito Big Dog

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    S,again by you saying Stormer could not produce is wrong & this is where all them nay sayers could not be further from the truth. How can you compare a dogs ability to produce based on one breeding ? To form that opinion is outlandish to say the least. That was my point,being that the dog is more or less more talked about for being a poor producer rather than a decent match dog,carrying stafford blood.
    TTB i am pretty sure that Stormer was killed by his son. Albeit not 100% as i did not own the dog or seen what happened.
     
  18. TIGHTLINE

    TIGHTLINE Pup

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    Good read , read these articles when they first came out and we all have our own opinions,
    but it is history and with history it is changed every time it is written or interpreted im not saying it is wrong.
    Game genes well there have been some great dog men and if they tried all there lifetime to crack the code and got a good one now and then it says it all to me,
    Use a good dog over a good bitch thats all you can do,
    As for results
    For me its all about Timeing (speed strength stamina) there's a window of opportunity do you quit on top ?All animals(male lion in a pride) and men (fighters) peak and carry on and carry on, then get beat by a younger stronger faster opponent,

    What ive always wanted to know was psycho past his best when he met stormer was he too old,past his best,in poor condition,or just beat by a better dog
    all in history
    Dave(PS Give me the psycho lines any day over stormer like was said above max,cykes,jocko, ect)
     
  19. Skeets

    Skeets Pup

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    Im pretty sure Stormer was not killed by his own son. Does it matter if Psycho was past his best, too old, in poor condition, or too light, the lads who had him probably didn't think so or they wouldn't have put the money on the line.
     
  20. maxwell

    maxwell Pup

    Re: Lee's "Max" Son of Psycho

    Stormer died from cancer as an old man , still owned by english K who made the mating with Tess
     

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