Innate Ability

YoungLion · Mar 4, 2016

Thanks for comments naustrom.

We are talking sport, competition, athletes, and God given ability.

Since we are talking apples and oranges , majors and minors, amateur and professional, fastlane and slow..I have a question?

Tyson Fury has the moniker "Gypsy King" and holds the world title in his weight class. Question does that mean there is not a gypsy alive that can beat him? If Tyson was to go back to his roots of bare knuckling would he be invincible due to his success in the fastlane? Or is it possible someone outside of the professional circuit has the ability or apptitude to beat the breaks off the world champ if he'd dare to take that ill-advised risk to his career, reputation, and ego?

Some can't fathom the idea that the best available competition is not as clear cut and dry as some would have us believe.

But if it makes a person feel good about themselves and their charges I'm all for it.

You should feel good about what feeding. But a good one is a good one is all I'm really saying.

Younglion

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Naustroms · Mar 5, 2016

I don't know about a gypsy king or anything. But a world class mma champion isn't going to walk into a bar and get his ass beat. That's a whole different realm from two dogs fighting that carries so many different variables it's not even worth going into. Apples and oranges.

A great dogs going to be able to compete in any circuit because a great dog is a great dog. It doesn't matter.

Where you get into your issue with competing in a weak circuit is your average of dogs and your barometer for a good dog. Your ace freak is going to transcend. But the chitlin circuit can make a champion out of a pretty mediocre dog. This then lowers the scale as that champion really should've gotten put away a long time ago.

Saiyagin · Mar 5, 2016

To keep this simple and too the point a gifted dog is a gifted dog regardless of where they came from or the amount of money involved or the so called fast lane. Like the old saying goes, good dogs are where you find them, but most of the time they are found on the yards of good dog men. lol

When it comes to fighting nothing is ever set in stone or cut and dry....Everyone thinks they are unbeatable until someone beats them, NEVER UNDERESTIMATE your opponent.

CajunBoulette · Mar 5, 2016

Naustroms said: ↑

A world champion mma fighter is going to murder some homegrown bar fighter.

But I kinda get your point. But you're also comparing apples and oranges. But I kinda get your point.
Click to expand...

But they are some guys that are just regular guys that fight alot and are good at it and can beat the ass of some that fight mma. Percentage wise 100 times the mma fighter may win 90, but the ten guys that beat the mma fighters.. what do you call them

slim12 · Mar 5, 2016

On the MMA a front I would go 99 out of 100 for the MMA guy. 1 in a 100 may land a lucky shot, especially if said MMA guy is thinking this is some loud mouth drunk who is not going to swing and WHAM. Straight up, looking eye to eye, I would go over 99 out of a 100.

The "shooting pool analogy" is a great one. I wish I had thought about it because it hit home. When I got out of the service I was single with only a small rent payment with little utilities. I picked up odd jobs in construction here and there. For about 17 months after I got out my main source of income was shooting pool.

The sole premise of me going bar to bar, pool hall to pool hall, was to make money. Not prove anything, or get better or preserve any sort of "game". I watched the tables and I picked on suckers and guys who were pretty good, but not as good as they thought they were, and most importantly, not as good as me. It was all about the money.

There were lots of times I saw a guy across the room who was better than me. I avoided this guy when at all possible because I did not care who was better but I cared about who left with the money.

Did I improve my skills by spotting suckers and blowhards? A little, as the shots were the same, whether it was against a sucker or someone who was better than me. Like repetition in baseball.

In the dogs I would be accused of picking. That would bring a lot of ridicule and insults. And I would agree. But there a lot of guys in the dogs that do just that. They beat up the locals but never go out to truly test or measure their spot in the grand scheme of things. But like I was on the tables, it is all about the money.

A well known fancier of the Buck bred dogs gave me a lesson one day about the very thing. We were talking 1st time out dogs. I said I would bring one out for small money and use it as a game check. Lots of people do this he said. The he pointed out a Buck dog that had several known wins to his name. He said, "That dog right there has won all six of his 1st time out matches". Basically if you do not know he is the best you got, the next guy very well may be bringing his best. You should never give away your money trying to find something out. Do that at home. It did not completely change my thoughts on the subject but I see his point.

The guy that turned me onto dogs long ago only kept 8-10-12 dogs at a time. If it were 10-12 dogs there at least 8 or so had already won. There were always 2 or three up and comers. He was not a breeder by any means so either they could win, or they could not. That was the measuring stick. He matched into any and every body. Open to the world meant something over there. He truly culled dogs in the pursuit of having winners.

For him it was not about the preservation it was about winning. The money was something that just happened to be apart of the process. It was the competition and the winning.

Basically it takes all kinds to make the dog world go around.

S

stinkrock · Mar 5, 2016

ben brockton said: ↑

The only comp is oneself.The dogs only get as good as the man behind them. what folks think has nothing to do with anything that pretains to ones yard. The debate ends when a fella and his hound take that ride back home and the other take the ride by themself. BB
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A great way of putting it. Couldn't have said it any better.

YoungLion · Mar 5, 2016

Great feedback fellas. I understand most of the points of views expressed. While I don't completely agree with them all I respect everyone's opinion and I know better then to think I have all the answers. Appreciate ya

YIS
Younglion

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Saiyagin · Mar 5, 2016

Comparing MMA fighters to bulldogs like Nasious said is like comparing apples to oranges. Bulldogs are bred solely for the purpose of COMBAT, while humans are not unless one is participating in the super soldier program LOL.

bounty · Mar 6, 2016

The best dog in the world could be in some old ladies back yard. However to claim that dog is the best or all that,etc it has to go out and beat the best. Like its been explained, there are many variables but a 10xer in the bush league may actually be the best but can't really make that claim unless it has beaten what is considered the best. Everyone thinks what they know and what they see in their dog is correct, but no matter how good a dog man you are, you never really know till you go through the process of seeing which is the better dog.

So young lion is right in saying dogs have their inate abilities and a dog can be a good dog whether its never been out or its won 10, but to make the claim that you truly know whats good and whats not. You really have to go into the best and see what happens. Then you will know.

What is the best competition?

slim12 · Mar 6, 2016

There is no way to tell who the best is, so many variables involved. The 40lb. male in Texas may not be able to travel to the 40lb male in Florida. The Texas male could have whooped everything in Texas/Oklahoma/Louisiana but those guys in Florida still think they have the best.

The guy in Florida is willing to go to Texas but the Texas money is way too large for him and his crew. So the guy in Florida goes to Louisiana and wins and the Texas guy still is sitting on that great 40lb. male.

Then they guy from NC calls on either of them for whatever amount at 39. One or both will take it and put their 40lb dog at a disadvantage from the get go.

The thing that all these made up scenarios have in common is people make all the decisions and all the choices. The dog only makes one choice and that is to go across to whatever is on the other side.

I can't say that dog is not this or that or I can't take away from what he did in his own backyard because he had no choice in the matter. The dog nothing to do with what he was not giving the opportunity to do.

I can't say 'but you didn't go to Texas' about the dog but I can say that about the owner. So if said dogs whoops 4 bums and a so-so the dog gets credit for taking care for what task was placed in front of him. His owner in turn has to answer the questions of why?

A hundred years ago when we were doing dogs we seldom knew who we were going into until after it was set up. We were at a show or a gathering and it went like this. "Anybody got a 37 male?" Yes. "How much?" $$$$$. "When?" 8 from today. "Where" at so and so's place. And we shook hands.

That is not picking and choosing. It is calling a called weight.

When Mims Charlie won #2 he was called out during aftercare. When he won #3 he got a call from Texas and another from SC. We weighed our options. Being off work factored in and we took the SC deal. The first response from Texas was we were ducking. So we said we won 3 you won 2 why can't you come to us. Blah blah blah.

In all that the dog just showed up and took care of the task at hand. No choices.
So debating competition is a man sport not a dog sport.

S

slim12 · Mar 6, 2016

Basically if you say this dog won 3 and is a CH. I give the dog the credit of being a CH. The next guy says he picked some local scrubs, or even travelled into some not so local scrubs.

I make it a point to say the owner of that dog blah blah blah. I never say that dog is sub par because of who he beat.

Maybe a slight play on words.

When Cornbread collected his forfeit I truly believed he was better than the $$$$$$dogs going for their CH. At the time I was not in the $$$$$$ lane. Even with 4 or 5 together. I admitted I can't go up but you could come down. But for whatever reasons their dog would scratch for 15K but would not scratch for 5K. Cornbread couldn't count anyway so it was never going to happen.

Cornbread was sold into that very click. Four weeks later all of Cornbread's brothers/sisters/half brothers/half sisters tripled in value. In four weeks he made chain spaces out of three of their $$$$$$$ dogs.

Cornbread could not help his owner did not have the $$$$$$ it took to get into good "competition". But Cornbread when given the opportunity showed he was more dog than his owner had bank. It happens a lot.

Most of the $$$$$$dogs are not bred and raised by the $$$$$$$ people. Like Cornbread, they are bought from the $$ people. Same dog. Two different sets of people. Two different banks. In all that, still the same dog.

S

Thunder98 · Mar 6, 2016

Heck of a way with wording it Slim...bulldawgs only know what's in front and. I agree that man makes the decisions for the animals....
I just hate the fact the money can ruin the game...good dogs are good dogs no matter the place, every variable overcame is a plus for the dog and makes him look even better..damn variables ....

YoungLion · Mar 6, 2016

Saiyagin said: ↑

Comparing MMA fighters to bulldogs like Nasious said is like comparing apples to oranges. Bulldogs are bred solely for the purpose of COMBAT, while humans are not unless one is participating in the super soldier program LOL.
Click to expand...

Don't really have to belabor my point when it's made so often in sports of all types. For those who know sports it's manifested in the form of THE UPSET and seen in those who sports commentators for lack of a better word call " Naturals"

My main point is that dynamic of innate ability plays a factor in sport's competition.

But to your point. I understand but Not every bulldog is bred for the sole purpose of combat. If that was the case it would probably be less curs floating around bred based on papers, ancestors merits, and phenotype. Even those bred for combat for instance say best to the best won't ensure an ace combat bulldog.(higher likelihood maybe).

But I made my comparison based on the dynamics of the athlete in general. Athletes or "elite" atheletes in most sports including the sporting dog have things in common. Many catch my drift without going into details. A conditioner of men could take what he used in one sport and likely condition a k9 athlete

There are mma athletes that go thru schooling, game testing, and keeps before they go to octagon. Its a Combat Sport. Lol. They are humans yes. But some humans are born with more of an aptitude for combat .

I'll put it this way. Sleeping on innate abilities will get you checked out of the square and octagon alike.

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redwar · Mar 6, 2016

Those are some very fine words there Mr Slim.. and very true as well. Funny, odd,strange how in the dog world so often the dogs get overlooked.

slim12 · Mar 6, 2016

Agreed. I will point out Ken Griffey Jr. He put up all time numbers over a long time. He was just about a unanimous pick for the Hall of Fame. Tony LaRussa once said imagine how good he would be if he tried. Jr. was not the hardest worker. He was not the guy to put in the hard work in the off season. He often showed up a little heavy. He didn't put hours in the cage like others.

Going sport by sport he may have very well be the most talented athlete in his/her respective sport ever.

Some dogs the same way.

S

YoungLion said: ↑

Don't really have to belabor my point when it's made so often in sports of all types. For those who know sports it's manifested in the form of THE UPSET and seen in those who sports commentators for lack of a better word call " Naturals"

My main point is that dynamic of innate ability plays a factor in sport's competition.

But to your point. I understand but Not every bulldog is bred for the sole purpose of combat. If that was the case it would probably be less curs floating around bred based on papers, ancestors merits, and phenotype. Even those bred for combat for instance say best to the best won't ensure an ace combat bulldog.(higher likelihood maybe).

But I made my comparison based on the dynamics of the athlete in general. Athletes or "elite" atheletes in most sports including the sporting dog have things in common. Many catch my drift without going into details. A conditioner of men could take what he used in one sport and likely condition a k9 athlete

There are mma athletes that go thru schooling, game testing, and keeps before they go to octagon. Its a Combat Sport. Lol. They are humans yes. But some humans are born with more of an aptitude for combat .

I'll put it this way. Sleeping on innate abilities will get you checked out of the square and octagon alike.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Saiyagin · Mar 6, 2016

YoungLion said: ↑

Don't really have to belabor my point when it's made so often in sports of all types. For those who know sports it's manifested in the form of THE UPSET and seen in those who sports commentators for lack of a better word call " Naturals"

My main point is that dynamic of innate ability plays a factor in sport's competition.

But to your point. I understand but Not every bulldog is bred for the sole purpose of combat. If that was the case it would probably be less curs floating around bred based on papers, ancestors merits, and phenotype. Even those bred for combat for instance say best to the best won't ensure an ace combat bulldog.(higher likelihood maybe).

But I made my comparison based on the dynamics of the athlete in general. Athletes or "elite" atheletes in most sports including the sporting dog have things in common. Many catch my drift without going into details. A conditioner of men could take what he used in one sport and likely condition a k9 athlete

There are mma athletes that go thru schooling, game testing, and keeps before they go to octagon. Its a Combat Sport. Lol. They are humans yes. But some humans are born with more of an aptitude for combat .

I'll put it this way. Sleeping on innate abilities will get you checked out of the square and octagon alike.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood what I meant. What sports compares themselves with bulldogs? LMAO I am not trying to belabor your point, I am speaking the TRUTH. Define the term upset? So upsets defined by sports commentators means natural? LOL Most of the times "UPSETS", are caused by luck and or certain unforseen circumstances and not because someones innate ability just happened to naturally awaken on that particular day of that event. LOL Innate ability is usually seen/recognized from the get go and or early stages of ones career, it doesnt just awaken like how we see in inspirational hero movies take for example forrest gump when he was young wearing those metal shit on his legs and one day his innate ability kicked in and he said fuck these metal crutches in my leg and started running and broke all that metal shit off LMAO

I never said innate abilities dont play a factor in sports competitions. What I said is comparing humans innate abilities on average compared to a bulldogs innate abilities on average is moot because the comparison gap is just too wide.

I already done told you that majority of the GAME BRED APBT are bred solely for the purpose of combat. They have been bred that way for hundreds and hundreds of generations for the sole purpose of combat, even those that skip a few generations can still carry that trait to pass on that INNATE ability because they have that FIGHTING LINEAGE to back it up. Are there any humans you know that breed solely for the purpose of fighting from one generation after the other in many generations in todays modern times? LOL Less curs floating around has nothing to do with innate ability LOL....more curs being around has to do with the breeders/owners error. LOL Although breeding best to best together wont ensure a ace dog that dog compared to any other breed of dog in the world pound for pound on the average cant even compare to the Game bred Bulldog, hence the reason why no one compares a Boston Terriers innate ability to a bulldogs ability when it comes to fighting. LOL

Sure there are some things that bulldogs and human athletes have in common, but when comparing innate abilities of a species bred solely for the purpose of fighting and another species not bred for fighting then that gap becomes very wide with many being far and few inbetween hence why its like comparing apples and oranges. If a conditioner of men could put a dog in top shape better then any dog men in the history of the breed then every single dogman in the world would be asking these conditioner of men for advice. LMAO Show me one conditioner of men who has no experience what so ever working with dogs and let me see him put one in top shape. LOL Its like someone going to a group of the top scientist in the world and asking them how should one breed there dogs to get the best fighting dog in the world. LMAO When scientist start breeding better fighting dogs then all the great dog men around the world through out the history of the breed then that is the day that dog fighting will become totally LEGAL in America. LMAO

Now let me show you the true difference between a human athlete and a gamebred bulldog when it comes to INNATE ABILITY. For a human to become a MMA fighter one needs to first LEARN/TRAIN/PRACTICE in that particular style/art of fighting. A Bulldog on the other hand does not need to learn how to fight as he is already knows how to fight due to his inborn natural ABILITY. Most bulldogs after 3-5 rolls or less have mastered there art of fighting. I have never heard of any person who has never trained in any type of martial arts become a expert MMA fighter in only after 3-5 lessons or less. LOL Some gifted bulldogs look like pro experts in there first schooling session like they been doing it all there life. LOL

Innate means INBORN, NATURAL/NATURALLY which is an adjective and when used to describe the noun ABILITY it equals INBORN NATURAL ABILITY. Some humans have more innate abilities then other humans , while some bulldogs have more innate abilities then other bulldogs, BUT when comparing innate abilities of a human to a bulldog it just does not compare, thats why there is a higher chance of a good bulldog meeting another good bulldog more so then a good human fighter meeting another good human fighter because there are just so many bulldogs that are bred specifically for fighting then there are humans when compared to each other.

When one is sleeping on innate abilities it means he had no innate abilities to begin with. LMAO

YoungLion · Mar 6, 2016

Saiyagin said: ↑

I think you misunderstood what I meant. What sports compares themselves with bulldogs? LMAO I am not trying to belabor your point, I am speaking the TRUTH. Define the term upset? So upsets defined by sports commentators means natural? LOL Most of the times "UPSETS", are caused by luck and or certain unforseen circumstances and not because someones innate ability just happened to naturally awaken on that particular day of that event. LOL Innate ability is usually seen/recognized from the get go and or early stages of ones career, it doesnt just awaken like how we see in inspirational hero movies take for example forrest gump when he was young wearing those metal shit on his legs and one day his innate ability kicked in and he said fuck these metal crutches in my leg and started running and broke all that metal shit off LMAO

I never said innate abilities dont play a factor in sports competitions. What I said is comparing humans innate abilities on average compared to a bulldogs innate abilities on average is moot because the comparison gap is just too wide.

I already done told you that majority of the GAME BRED APBT are bred solely for the purpose of combat. They have been bred that way for hundreds and hundreds of generations for the sole purpose of combat, even those that skip a few generations can still carry that trait to pass on that INNATE ability because they have that FIGHTING LINEAGE to back it up. Are there any humans you know that breed solely for the purpose of fighting from one generation after the other in many generations in todays modern times? LOL Less curs floating around has nothing to do with innate ability LOL....more curs being around has to do with the breeders/owners error. LOL Although breeding best to best together wont ensure a ace dog that dog compared to any other breed of dog in the world pound for pound on the average cant even compare to the Game bred Bulldog, hence the reason why no one compares a Boston Terriers innate ability to a bulldogs ability when it comes to fighting. LOL

Sure there are some things that bulldogs and human athletes have in common, but when comparing innate abilities of a species bred solely for the purpose of fighting and another species not bred for fighting then that gap becomes very wide with many being far and few inbetween hence why its like comparing apples and oranges. If a conditioner of men could put a dog in top shape better then any dog men in the history of the breed then every single dogman in the world would be asking these conditioner of men for advice. LMAO Show me one conditioner of men who has no experience what so ever working with dogs and let me see him put one in top shape. LOL Its like someone going to a group of the top scientist in the world and asking them how should one breed there dogs to get the best fighting dog in the world. LMAO When scientist start breeding better fighting dogs then all the great dog men around the world through out the history of the breed then that is the day that dog fighting will become totally LEGAL in America. LMAO

Now let me show you the true difference between a human athlete and a gamebred bulldog when it comes to INNATE ABILITY. For a human to become a MMA fighter one needs to first LEARN/TRAIN/PRACTICE in that particular style/art of fighting. A Bulldog on the other hand does not need to learn how to fight as he is already knows how to fight due to his inborn natural ABILITY. Most bulldogs after 3-5 rolls or less have mastered there art of fighting. I have never heard of any person who has never trained in any type of martial arts become a expert MMA fighter in only after 3-5 lessons or less. LOL Some gifted bulldogs look like pro experts in there first schooling session like they been doing it all there life. LOL

Innate means INBORN, NATURAL/NATURALLY which is an adjective and when used to describe the noun ABILITY it equals INBORN NATURAL ABILITY. Some humans have more innate abilities then other humans , while some bulldogs have more innate abilities then other bulldogs, BUT when comparing innate abilities of a human to a bulldog it just does not compare, thats why there is a higher chance of a good bulldog meeting another good bulldog more so then a good human fighter meeting another good human fighter because there are just so many bulldogs that are bred specifically for fighting then there are humans when compared to each other.

When one is sleeping on innate abilities it means he had no innate abilities to begin with. LMAO
Click to expand...

Lmao..you get an A for effort. Lol thanks for sharing lol

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Saiyagin · Mar 6, 2016

YoungLion said: ↑

Lmao..you get an A for effort. Lol thanks for sharing lol

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Click to expand...

I am not sharing I am responding to your response, so does that mean you get an F for your effort because you dont have a rebuttal or could not even put in the effort to counter my response? LMAO

YoungLion · Mar 6, 2016

Saiyagin said: ↑

I am not sharing I am responding to your response, so does that mean you get an F for your effort because you dont have a rebuttal or could not even put in the effort to counter my response? LMAO
Click to expand...

I promise I can dismantle your faulty logic but to what end. Plus I won't belabor a point that needs no clarification. Either you understand where I'm coming from or don't. I understand what you are sayian and I just have a difference of opinion. So you can move along or keep going this route. I'm at family celebration for the weekend but I'd gladly take you or anyone else up a debate worth my time.

YIS
Younglion

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Saiyagin · Mar 6, 2016

YoungLion said: ↑

I promise I can dismantle your faulty logic but to what end. Plus I won't belabor a point that needs no clarification. Either you understand where I'm coming from or don't. I understand what you are sayian and I just have a difference of opinion. So you can move along or keep going this route. I'm at family celebration for the weekend but I'd gladly take you or anyone else up a debate worth my time.

YIS
Younglion

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Click to expand...

Oh really??? I am sure you have heard of the saying "TALK IS CHEAP", right? LMAO....Your the one that does not understand where you are coming from hence why you asked people for there opinion because you need some fucking clarification or else why would you make a post on this topic if you already KNEW IT ALL??? SMDH LMAO....It seems your the one that stuck in this route and needs help moving on, because it dont effect me none, in fact this amuses me. LMAO. Wait so now you are back peddling? You said you wont belabor a point that needs no clarification but next you go on to say you would take me up on a debate worth your time? What is a debate that is worth your time??? A debate that coincides with your opinion? LMAO Or a debate you think you can win? You know what I find so funny about all these so called "DEBATES"? In the end there is no real winner or loser and nothing is really solved. I do it for the same reason why I browse the internet for pure entertainment. LMAO

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