He is not a cur

Have you ever seen a dog that would whip the hell out of anything that was put in front of him, but when handled wouldn't scratch? Or, a dog that would perform with remarkable ability until his opponent was left prone and defenceless, then he would let up and walk away? One of the best dogs I ever saw was Tudor's "Spike". He was an out and out destroyer, but once he had his opponent down and stretched out, he would stop his assault and lick his adversary...If the other dog moved at all "Spike" went back to his murderous ways and if he was handled he would not, in the least, hesitate to scratch. Of course, since the other dog had also been handled, "Spike" was aware that the other dog had moved, even if only by his handler. Howard Heinzl mentioned to me, on more than one occasion, that he considered "Spike" less than a game dog because of this trait. If he was a cur, then I'd certainly like a yard full of curs just like him.

Most animal specialists, who have studied animal behaviour, all seem to agree that animals will fight one another in the wild for either sex or food. However, when one or the other adopts a submissive posture, the other will see that he is the winner and stops fighting or else allows his opponent to beat a hasty retreat, without any further aggressive behaviour. In studies done with wolves, a dogs closest relative in the wild state, this certainly seems to be the case. If the 'Alpha' male is challenged, he'll find the pretender to the death, if necessary. If either becomes convinced that he isn't going to win the battle, all that he has to do is stop fighting, adopt a submissive posture and the whole thing is over and done with. The protagonists are back to being good buddies before the dust even settles.

We must remember, that the rules and regulations that govern a contest between two dogs have been fashioned by human beings, after a pre-Marquis of Queensbury boxing match. A man who was knocked down was taken to his corner, given a certain time to regain his senses, and then walk to the centre of the ring, to the scratch line, and assume a posture that would tell one and all that he was ready to resume the battle. Much like a turn and scratch in our sport. But, that is what we humans have used as a criteria to judge a dogs gameness. There may be some recessive gene in our modern day bulldogs that still harbors that particular trait. After all, it is a common trait, of our dogs closest relative, living in a wild state. I've often wondered if a residue of that genecould be hidden in the genetic makeup of some of our modern day dogs.

Some years ago, Tommy Gill and Indian Eddie, two New England fanciers, had bred some dogs by Petronelli's "Fox", a littermate to some great dogs, including Gr.Ch."Boomerang", Art's "Missy" and Brown's Ch."Nell". They sent me down a bunch of this breeding since I had recently moved South, and now had plenty of room to keep more dogs than you were able to keep in the North. Of course, not every dog they sent me was an 'ace'. But some, like Ch."Mork", Ch."Lochen", Timmy's "Hogger", "Maple" and "Darby" were certainly a cut above a good dog. A few others seemed to be just as good that we never got around to matching and of course, there were some that were flat out rank curs. One of those that never did get matched was a 51lb dog, that Timmy called "Little Fox". The dog was a veritable powerhouse. The first time I rolled him, he ran over to the other dog and wanted to romp around and play with him. The other dog didn't want any of that nonsense and tore into "Little Fox" with a vengeance. "Little Fox" was shocked, you could see in his face that his feelings were hurt and a lot more of him was getting hurt as well.

It took "Little Fox" two or three minutes to realise that the other dog didn't want to make friends with him and for the next ten or twelve minutes "Little Fox" took the other dog apart. He had him down and was killing his inert and defenceless opponent. Then it suddenly appeared that "Little Fox" got a message, from some long repressed gene, that told him that his opponent was in submissive position, not able to defend himself. "Little Fox" backed off, crouched down on his front legs, whilst sticking his wagging tail in the air in a dogs posture of playing. We picked up the dogs to see if "Little Fox" would scratch. He ran straight over to the other dog and resumed his attempts to play with the dog. "Little Fox" would fight that dog and two others that we rolled him with, just as long as those dogs would fight back, but, at the slightest indication that the other dog was through fighting, "Little Fox" would try to make friends with them. I often thought that acting in this manner was a throwback to how animals act in the wild.

I sent "Little Fox" back to Timmy and I think that he did breed him once, before he got out of the dogs. I never found out how the pups turned out, if there were any pups. I knew one thing, I wasn't going to match him. But I always thought that if this dog was responding to some long displaced gene, he might well be worth breeding. On the other hand, there may be nothing more to the gene theory other than making an excuse for a dog that had everything to win, but didn't have the fire in his blood to scratch back to the action. It seems that many reputable breeders will not hesitate to breed to a well bred, cold bitch, but avoid like the plague a dog that won't scratch, Many times they opt to breed to a well known dog that has never even been rolled.

Former President Jimmy Carter with his dog Bozo 1937

 

Sure the desire to fight and to scratch was bred into em by man. But when I read that story first thing that came to my is comparisons to other breeds. Examples... a rottweiler that couldn't bust a grape with a sledgehammer, a lab that won't retrieve, or a hound dog that won't bay on the trail but instead hunts quietly to not alert his prey. Breeding to that would be a step backwards wouldn't it? Just my opinion, would love to hear others.

 

Bred best to best and time will tell the rest.

 

Dam fine lookin dog there

 

Its pitty to see dogs like Little Fox or Tudor’s Spike.Knowing they have all during the fight but when they get seperated they loose their interest in fighting until the other dog react to fight. Thats also one off the reason why Some people dont want to show their dogs under cajun rules.

 

How many times u see the dog whic quit fight back after the opponent reach him after completing his scratch and take his win title.

 

I've seen the same before through out my years of raising and rescuing Bulldog's. I have seen Bulldog's who would play with a dead dog after a yard accident. I've seen them quit after they have completely destroyed another Bulldog and lay down lick its wounds and even sleep with its rival. I've seen a straight up killer pass 8 chain spots with Bulldog's to get to a certain Bulldog and after killing a certain one go to the next the he had passed by on his way to the one he wanted 1st. DVR, Camera set ups
I'm going back many years ago. This post is for historical purposes only. I have owned Bulldog's that wouldn't fight one another in my home, however let the outside, smh. Better have a breaking stick and a leash or empty chain spot close by to separate them. I've had a few who were social. They would play with other hounds, tolerate pups ect. In all honesty I love it Bulldog who has pit smarts if you will. Yes for those who haven't seen it. It's not that uncommon.

 

@corvettedex same here. Big part of my dogs were good with each other also sometimes with strange dogs they knew their time, they knew where they are bred for, they had the called pit smarts. This dogs are easy going dogs. Not problem dogs, confident and most off this dogs are really smart.

 

some play with the 20 second count and others play 10 in running-up-the-hill races. Think about it, a complete different ballgame. Mighty good atlete goes at 13 instead 10 tot the top, thus counted out VS one down hill the 20 count had made this particulair athlete a winner. Just a thought.

 

I spend that kind of time with mine and only been able to successfully have 2 coexist together. Just 1 time in 24 years.

My M.I.A. and Lil Miss Geach lived together from LMGs birth until M.I.As death. About 7 years total. Even went in the same crate together when I went to work. Neither tolerated other dogs. Every other time I've tried it, it ended just as one would think it would end. Tragically. I stopped even trying to do it about 7 years ago. Just not worth it for me to attempt it these days. The outcome is almost always the same.

Breeding time is a bit different. My males will ALL be cordial with a female in a stand. However the girls always have to be muzzled and they fight it the majority of the time they are in the stand.

Charlie is the only male here that will hit a female in heat unprovoked. The rest just want the ass.

 

A friend owned this bitch , she could be let off the lead ,never any worries about attacking dogs ,,she went on to be a Grand Champion
"SHELLY" ..

http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=365123

 

Had a dog as everyone speaks of as animal social...only 1 like @AGK said Had numerous about of dogs and only 1 by the name of Boosie that I didn't even have to have a collar on he was that gentle wen he knew it wasn't time to go to the P.I.T.

He was a gentle as a poodle until we got into them 4 walls...den a manica with smarts an agility and mouth like a razor

I was with him daily from 2 months old to 9yrs old he listen to me like a human...in the box this came in handy as I could see where the opponent was aiming for and tell him to move switch turn shake etc...and he would do as told listening to me every step...he fought on his own but wen I wanted to show his obedience my locals would win alot of money.

I can still hear them now sleep go ahead and turn him up quick playing with em...and den the side bets begin 100 he can make him shake so and so times ....man I had to seat down brought back some good ole memories

 

I gotta say I’m fascinated with this thread.

I’m not gonna go on..but I had one that a old lady would think butter would not melt in his mouth.
I’m glad to say I never gave the fcker to a old lady lol..he would have seen something move and went from jeckel to hide in under a second.
Enough to give the old lady a heart attack for sure.

She looked after him sometimes for me with no trouble.

I never had the hart to tell her that here lovely pal was a complete demon incarcerate.

What comes straight to my mind of this thread is they are purely......dogs of velvet and steel.

I love these dogs so fckn much.
All the best folks..great thread.

 

A bit of topic but I have to say it.....
Mayfield said he thinks these dogs have got the soul of the devil..I think mayfield is way way wrong when he says this...I actually think they got the soul of some warrior god oppose to the devil.