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Game and Changing Times

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by tommy3, Jan 5, 2006.

  1. tommy3

    tommy3 CH Dog

    It seems that very often there is a member that feels that gameness is no longer necessary because the only way to prove it is now illegal. They say changing times demand a change in breeding practices, both for legal and moral implications.

    Now, I will be the first to say that I am not a breeder because I have too much to learn and I can not think of a good way to prove my dogs legally. I will never breed a dog if it can not better the breed. Therefore, my dog will remain a pet.
    Everything in the following paragraphs is from an APBT owner that does not prove his dogs game and is mostly formed of my opinions. I am not a breeder and I only know a tiny fraction of what I am going to learn. Therefore, as I said, these are my opinions.

    Now, as times have changed, the practice of game testing is definitely frowned upon by the public. A mere pedigree and magazines can be enough to charge a person for the crime of dogfighting. There needs to be no physical evidence to have an entire yard put down.

    Where does this lead us? Should gameness remain at the forefront of a breeding program? Better yet, should we be advertising gameness as the main trait to preserve? Yes, this trait did build the breed. However, the process of retaining this trait can now damage it in this day and time in relationship to the current problems with BSL. I feel that if a kennel continues to follow the "old ways", they should keep it to themselves. In my opinion, telling the public that gameness is the only reason for breeding is just an encouragement for those that are uneducated on the breed and those that don't care about the breed to go about and fight their dogs. I feel that if you test your stock through these means, it should be kept to yourselves and to those that know you and your yard personally. Posts that claim that gameness makes the APBT what it is, is the exact posts that PETA, Laura Maloney, and the likes will use to ban the breed completely.

    In my opinion, game testing and gameness is too touchy of a subject to just tell every new member here (not to mention the large number of lurking non-members) that their kennel is not producing APBTs because they are not game testing (it is illegal). Usually, the same people who get flamed in this manner are the kennels that are producing large dogs that do not fit the physical standard of an APBT. Therefore, instead of flaming of their lack of game testing (which I truly doubt the majority here has ever done) you should flame them for breeding dogs that don't fit the physical standard. Leave the gameness posts out. I'd say that the large majority (if not all) of the people here have one or more curs.

    I, personally, have no problem with those that do not game test their stock. As long as, the kennel works their dogs heavily in some way and they absolutely refuse to breed for looks and such. As long as they are working dogs that fit the standard, they are okay in my book. They are not the best specimens, of course, but at the least, they are still APBTs because they retain the physical traits of a true to standard APBT and are still being used outside of the livingroom couch. Once again, my opinion.

    To those that think that is okay to use your unwillingness to game test stock as an excuse to change the breed to your liking, please know that this breed would not change physically because of the lack of game testing. They would just become curs. Nothing else. The only way physical changes will occur, is if it has been bred to look different from the original breed. If you don't want to test your stock, fine. However, if your dog is a overgrown monster, you can pretty much bet that those looks weren't because it wasn't game tested. It was because the breeder wanted the dog to look that way. Therefore, the dog is bred for the wrong reasons.

    To sum it up, I feel that all of this talk of gameness should be left out. Keep it to yourselves. Gameness is very important but I feel that talk concerning it should be left in the history books and not in public forums where it can be misinterpreted. If you do test, know that you are the last of a dying breed. If you are breeding dogs that do not fit the standard, do not use the excuse of your unwillingness to game test as being the reason that you breed dogs as you do. If the dogs were bred with respect to the breed without an emphasis on gameness, they will not change physically. If the dog does not fit the standard, it was bred for the wrong reasons.

    By the way, just because an APBT is a cur it does not become a different breed. On the other hand, a dog that is bred with the intentions to be a cur is a different breed.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2006
  2. rocksteady

    rocksteady I'll drink to that..

    that is your opinion and it is well noted
    HOWEVER just because people talk about gameness in breeding doesnt imply anything.. Most of the time we are talking about dogs that are game bred.. meaning coming from a game lineage..

    Gameness needs to be talked about because even when not tested for it is still there. Cur dogs can produce the occasional game dog whether it is tested for or not..and dogs are game whether or not its proved..and to completely ignore gameness is basically heading for a big old accident. If we ignore this trait we are certainly headed down the wrong path. Why? Look at people that ignore gameness now.. while most understand that aggression and gameness are not the same, what happens if your (and im not implying anyone inparticular) house pet gets in an accident and simply doesnt STOP. Then what?? The person that understands gameness and hasnt stuck their head in the sand will know what to do and more importantly, because they place that trait high on the list, would probably have taken precautions to prevent an accident while the person who thinks they have bred it out wont have the slightest clue and only end up hurting the breed even more due to their ignorance

    And secondly, dont you think gameness or game bred dogs give a person the edge in such competitions such as weight pulling and hog hunting? Yes, non game bred and "cur" dogs do quite well in these sports but how about a dog that simply will not stop when the going gets tough? Or even in search and rescue.. while many "game bred" dogs would probably never fair well due to the fact they must work with other dogs, those that can simply excell..i for one would rather have a dog that isnt going to stop looking when the going gets tough. Gameness has nothing to do persay with the act of fighting ...because its simply the grit, heart and determination to never ever give up no matter how tough the going gets..

    So see, it is only you who have "implied" we are discusing things we shouldnt be when we talk about gameness. No, the trait of gameness will always be there..in individual dogs..maybe not as frequently as one would like or want, you may not completely know if a dog is game but to simply ignore it or think it will never show up even in 2 cur bred dogs is ignorant, just as thinking dog aggression wont happen in 2 am staffs ...

    People want the name APBT for the wrong reasons. Otherwise, if none of the "stero type" mattered, those who are breeding for size, color, would have changed the name and said hell no, we arent raising those dogs ..this is different. Yet they still keep slapping the APBT name on their dogs. Hmmm. These are people who never HAD game dogs or game bred dogs.. they jumped on the bandwagon when someone else did it. These are people who could have choosen am staffs, Neos, American Bulldogs and gotten the same dog ..yet they wanted the name of the APBT...

    So how can anyone say they dont want gameness if in fact they never ever had it to begin with? They dont know what it is so shouldnt be talking out their butts to being with.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2006
  3. tommy3

    tommy3 CH Dog

    I understand what you are saying. However, I definitely am not saying that gameness should be left out. Not in the least sense. I am saying that there are posts where people are speaking of game testing and such. I feel that such talk should be left out. People are making comments concerning certain members' kennels lack of game testing. They say that this is what makes the dog a different breed.
    My view is that the dog is still an APBT if it is not game tested. It is a different breed when it is bred to be a cur. There is a difference.

    I will only have dogs from game lines. If it turns out to be a cur, no big deal. But, believe me, one of the main reasons I keep these dogs is because of gameness.
    I do not see the need for such an emphasis on game testing stock on a public forum. There is too many people that can use something like this against the breed and even the members on this forum. I do not see the need for it. Do we honestly want uneducated people to buy dogs and test them? Shouldn't this information be left to those that know the breed? To me, talk such as this, is just more of a reason for idiots to fight their dog in the street. If talk such as this is left out then there are less uneducated people that are tempted to test. Leave it to the pros, I guess. That is all, I just kinda dragged it out a bit.

    This forum does alot of good. However, I can not see much good coming from talk such as game testing. Most people have no idea how it is done anyways. Mix in this with the crazy ideas like bait dogs and we have a problem.
    I don't know. I just think that it should be left in the dark.
    Thanks for the reply. Good post.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2006
  4. 14rock

    14rock GRCH Dog

    Testing for gameness in the truest sense of the word is illegal, and discussion if it is prohbited from this board (and nearly any another board that plans to stay up for any ammount of time). All refrences made to game testing are in the historical sense of the word, in agreement with the animal rights act of 1976. If you are not talking about hog-hunting or historical times, your walking a dangerous road and your posts will be deleted for your own safety as well as the breeds. Public forums are not the place to discuss this matter, you never know whos watching. So keep it legal, and make no implications to fighting stock or you will face the consequences. And I can assure you, having your post edited or deleted is the least of your worries when anybody with a computer could of seen the post.
  5. mydawgs

    mydawgs CH Dog

    I am a pet bull owner, I have one game bred APBT and one staff/pit mix. I cannot emphasize enough the knowledge of the breed I have aquired that has come from discussions you suggest are better left alone. The idea that you have a safer dog if it is not a game dog or a dog from a non game lineage in todays environment (ie the changing times) can be so damaging to the breed. I draw on my personal experience as my pit bull is solid and steady in temperment and my sweet little mixamutt is as driven and "on fire" as the day is long. It can only hurt those of us who do not have the arsenal of information about this breeds history and potential to not know about it. You cannot just jump from A to Z, and say well pit bulls are aggresive with no pertinent information in between. That is like telling your teenager "don't have sex", without explaining to them that in "todays time" sex can kill you...the why. With these discussions comes the basics regarding everything about dogs in general. I am amazed at the regular people that opt to own dogs like bull dogs, sheppards, corsos that just stumble through their lives and then some day an accident occurs and they have not a clue of how to react. So for me what does learning about game and how one preserves this highly valued characteristic; it teaches me that I may have the best damn companion in the world - but that is no reason to breed him, how and what is required to own a dog with a pit bulls potential - down to where you live even, how to survive in a highly biggoted culture and most importantly how to value the true teachers and resources (dogmen and dogwomen) to help me through this journey I decided to embark on the second I took ownership of one of my dogs. There are times I am so discouraged as a pet bull owner because of the environment around me, but in my lowest moments I take great comfort in knowing my dogs would never quit on me, and it gives me the motivation to put one foot in front of another and deal with the problem of the day, this is small I know but it has significant meaning to me.....it makes me want to be "game" in the game of life. I believe God does things with great purpose, so I think there is a reason I own pit bulls and all the important information and lessons learned that go with them. JMO.
    Jenn, miakoda and rocksteady like this.
  6. rocksteady

    rocksteady I'll drink to that..

    Good post Mydawgs ;)

    true, there is only one true way to test for gameness ..but testing or fighting a dog doesnt MAKE the dog game ..a dog either is or it isnt. Its just imperative to understand the trait and know and appericate it exisits.. wherther one is 100% sure their dog is or not. (one can hope, huh? lol) Simply saying i like game dogs doesnt mean you fight your dog ... because again, fighting a dog doesnt make it game ...nothing can make a dog game.. it either is or isnt. But in all reality, the one trait that seperates and makes the APBT the dog it is IS that one trait. And it is the hardest trait to get... but regardless, it does happen and it is still there whether one has proved it or not..
  7. miakoda

    miakoda GRCH Dog

    Good post, Mydawgs. Education is the key. You cannot leave rules out that are needed in solving algebra problems nor can you leave out some aspects of the breed. To speak of is not to condone, but to speak of, you don't need to go into great "how-to" detail either.

    Good post.
  8. tommy3

    tommy3 CH Dog

    Where did I ever say that a non game bred dog is better or safer than a game bred dog? I assure you that never came from me. I am only talking about keeping comments such as game testing to yourself. I have never in my life talked down on gameness. I hold that trait in the highest regard. I am talking about the way things are said on this board.
  9. Diesel

    Diesel Top Dog

    This is a very interesting topic...
  10. tommy3

    tommy3 CH Dog

    Alright, let me clarify. I did not start this post in regards to the importance of gameness. I started this post in regards as the whether or not it is needed for us to tell others that a dog is not an APBT because it is not game tested.
  11. mydawgs

    mydawgs CH Dog

    I absolutley agree with you, and never meant to imply you made such a statement. My point was by not talking to the subject of "game" it is easier to come to such a conclusion. You see how discussing this topic naturally leads you through the "important things to know about pit bulls" for folks who need to make a decision about if this breed is right for them, BEFORE they take a dog and not after.....no offense intended

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