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A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by Rocky H. Balboa, Feb 2, 2006.

  1. TripleJ

    TripleJ CH Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    That has been going on for years. IMO a game large pitdog will stop those dogs I seen a 73lb pit wt maloney bred dog that would make any of those big old currs think twice about coming back a good box dog will go underneath and eat his way out the otherside. and stay out of trouble doing it. J
     
  2. texas_dogger

    texas_dogger Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    Our box as you put it I believe is not getting any smaller than it ever has been. Our dogs have stood the test of time, bred to be the best at what they do for centuries. There is no other dog or animal in the world that can do it as good as the APBT. Alot of other countries have so called "fighting breeds" that they put against are superior dogs at uneven matches 35lbs vs 150lbs not much of a competition if you ask me, and sometimes our breed manages to prevail against all odds just as it has since its conception. There dog maybe bigger, stronger, faster, bite harder, or whatever but WE GOT GAME. Pound for pound there is no other dog in the world that holds a candle to the Gamebred APBT. JMHO.
     
  3. texas_dogger

    texas_dogger Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    Good thread by the way.:)
     
  4. HugoBoss

    HugoBoss Pup

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    Bully kuttas, dogos, bull n terrier, tosas, ovarkas, rottweilers and many more have been used for dog matches for many years in other countries outside the USA, are they game?, maybe to some degree, but I believe never comparable with a good game pitbull, I am a game bred pitbull owner and know that pound4pound the pitbull is the best for matches, but the key word here is pound4pound, our dogs could be game, but they do not posses super powers lol, lets be real.
     
  5. Osea

    Osea Banned

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    There are American Pit Bull Terriers and there are curs. Own whichever you like but don't confuse one for the other.
     
  6. Lou1187

    Lou1187 Pup

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    http://video.on.nytimes.com/?fr_story=FEEDROOM197138

    I found this today. I thought it would fit nicely in this thread. 20 years ago I had never heard of SRO or the CO or the tosa for that matter. I have always owned bulldogs.

    Since dog fighting is illegeal in the US, does it matter if our box is getting larger or smaller...? Since major "crack downs" and the influx of dog fighting in Russia/Japan/Central Asia. Imo....... our box is getting smaller. However, Today I looked at some tosa kennels online. I though it was great to see so much APBT influance in the Tosa. To me they looked like Bandogs.

    http://www.freewebs.com/bankotsukennels/japanesetournamentclip.htm

    Those are Bandogs!

    PS Dog fighting is cruel.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2008
  7. PrNc

    PrNc Pup

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    In this post someone mentioned tosas more powerfull and strong than apbt... lol come on, is this serious? who has the records in climb, high jump/distance, weight pull etc etc...?
    From where those records belongs to huh?
     
  8. Bullyson

    Bullyson CH Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    This is a good thread and it gave me an idea. If everything being posted now is such garbage, why dont those who wish to post some fresh threads that "mean" something or go dig up some old ones that "mean" something? Just a suggestion. DJ.
     
  9. dmx215

    dmx215 Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    try this out www.fightingtosa.com
     
  10. Mr Mark

    Mr Mark Guest

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    The rest of the world still cannot compete with the APBT. Here's something to think about:

    "With the best APBT's in the world being right here in the USA, tell me what type of competition do you think the rest of the world is competing against...and they're still having trouble?"

    ~Mr Mark
     
  11. Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    How long will it be until what you say is a lie?

    Many countries or cluster of countries in Eastern Europe, and Asia are competing openly and constantly without concern of laws or humaniacs who want to inject their morality onto them. They have been using old blood and have produced athletes who at world records, work for 5-6 hours. NO BS no lies....all on video for everyone to see and make their own judgement. Contrary, in the USA we have small clusters each with their own "unbeatable ACES" that will never meet because of legal matters.
     
  12. Mr Mark

    Mr Mark Guest

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang


    I hear what you're getting at and in the not too distant future this may change, you're right. However, even though the laws get tougher here in the US there are still plenty of dogmen doing their thing; and I don't know the exact numbers, but i'm pretty sure there are more dogmen today then there were a couple of decades ago. The difference today is that it is much more secretive and the consequences are greater. They still don't have the comp in other countries "yet" that we have here!
     
  13. Marduk

    Marduk Pup

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    First all I must say that this thread has became very interesting.

    I own a game dog...and I consider it the best dog I could ever have (and I have had a few breeds like Presa Canario - GREAT dogs- and Rotties)!
    Is he the best fighter? I have no idea...and I will never know that...for the simple reason that he will never match him or even roll him. Although...I truly believe that if sort of accident happens (like the gentleman that owns a staffies just wrote...with the Rott) he will know how to take good care of him... but I sure hope it is not with such monster like Tosas or Kangal!!!

    About the bully kuttas...from what I've read about them...they are bred just based on agressivity...they can even prey on their owners...if so...it doesn't seem reasonable to keep them...

    There is one breed that was only touched in this thread...that I trully believe that should be deeply respected by any dogmen in the world... and that is the CAO! Central Asia Ovcharka. A cousin of the Kangal...they had the same origin but they took different "roads" in evollution. Slow? maybe...game? have no idea...since 90% of them are not matched... wind? maybe...yes...maybe not. But one thing is true...they are huge...they can bite...most of them have some wind...enough to defend their owners and flocks from wolfs! (there was a documentary on the internet with a video of a CAO fighting 2 wolfs and killing them both...to defend the flock...it is an old documentary). Like I said most of them are not fought for sport...when they fight...they fight for their lifes. They have thousands of years on their backs...being bred in poor countries (at least in the past)...and they are still successful...that means something to me....it means that their are good at what they do! For that reason they deserve all my respect...(and by the way...some breeders in easter Europe...match them with all breeds of dogs...and they have been victorious many times...but again...were the other breeds well represented? have no idea)

    Regards
     
  14. Marty

    Marty Guest

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    Marduk you own a game bred dog then not a game dog... big difference ;)

    My dogs are not game just game bred :p

    Just wanted to point that out ;)
     
  15. Marduk

    Marduk Pup

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    Absolutely correct! Thank you for your correction!

    My apologies also for the bad grammar...but English is not my native language...
     
  16. Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    Since this thread is about a World view not just a narrow, tunnel vision of what we believe is right and wrong, please find a report published in the The New York Times in regards to a cultural tradition in Russia.

    Remember that this is an education thread that seeks to gather information and opinions from all places, cultures, and traditions.

    Neither I, the reporter, or the publishing Newspaper condone illegal activities.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/09/w...tml?_r=2&pagewanted=1&oref=slogin&oref=slogin


    </NYT_HEADLINE>[​IMG]


    MOSCOW, Feb. 8 — The two opponents padded and paced on a snowcovered basketball court, waiting for their fight to begin.
    Multimedia

    [​IMG]Video Dogfighting in Russia




    [​IMG] Viktor Korotayev for The New York Times

    A dogfighting tourney was held at a sanitarium in the Tula region.



    They were adult Central Asian wolf dogs in the middleweight class. Both were undefeated in a combined 42 appearances in Russia's fighting-dog rings. Each weighed more than 100 pounds.

    The referee gave the sign. Their trainers released them. The dogs growled, lunged and met, locking jaws on each other's faces. They began pulling and twisting, each trying to force the other to the snow.
    About 150 people lined the fences to watch. The most intense matchup of the fourth stage of the all-Russian dogfighting championship, held in a forest region well south of Moscow, had begun.

    Dogfighting is prohibited in much of the West, and animal rights advocates have long wished to have it banned in Russia and the rest of the former Soviet world, labeling it a cruel and a bloody diversion for gamblers and thugs. They have succeeded in Moscow, where the fights are forbidden by mayoral decree.

    But throughout Central Asia and the Caucasus, and extending to the outskirts of Russia's capital, a form of the sport has thrived, cementing local legitimacy and gaining new followers since the Soviet Union's collapse 15 years ago. It has also returned to Afghanistan, where it was forbidden during the Taliban's rule.

    The sport involves massive, thick-headed breeds, including Central Asian shepherd dogs and Caucasian ovcharka, bred by livestock herders across the continent to defend sheep and cattle in the mountains and on the steppe. Collectively the dogs are called volkodavs, the wolf-killers.

    The All-Russian Association of Russian Volkodavs, which sponsors a national fighting championship and participates in fights in other nations, claims to have more than 1,000 breeders among its members and another 1,000 owners who enter dogs in fights.

    It holds tournaments almost openly, and has enough fans to support a glossy magazine, a Web site and an annual championship tournament.
    Its members brush aside criticism as ill-informed and superficial, saying the sport has roots in traditional contests in which shepherds tested their work dogs and celebrated their stamina and wolf-fighting skills. They also insist that their tournaments, unlike secretive fights with pit bulls and other fighting breeds, never involve contests to the death, and that the dogs are rarely injured seriously.

    "Only people who have not seen it, and do not understand it, dislike this," said Stanislav Mikhailov, the association's president, as owners gathered recently for the latest tourney, held in a sanitarium in the Tula region, in the forest south of Moscow.

    This event was at once open and partly closed. The fans streamed in. But one Western and three Russian journalists were admitted on condition that the sanitarium's location not be disclosed, out of fear of vandalism or protests by opponents of the fights. In the Caucasus and in Asia, dog owners said, such precautions are not necessary.

    In the ring the fight continued. The dogs tugged each other in tight circles by their snouts and then broke free, snarled and attacked again. Sometimes they rose up, pressing for leverage with forepaws while driving forward on hind legs and seeking a purchase for their bared teeth.
    Their handlers crouched beside them, shouting encouragement.
    <!--feedroom code starts here //-->
    One dog, a reddish-tan shepherd's dog called Sarbai, took an early advantage. He weighed about 135 pounds, at least 30 pounds more than his foe. "Good boy, Sarbai!" his handler shouted. "Bite him well! Work!"
    Sarbai wagged the stump of his clipped tail.

    His opponent, Jack, had a slightly crooked left rear leg, which his owner said had been broken when he was hit by a car five years ago. He could not match Sarbai's strength. But he was quick. He refused to submit. As he yielded ground, he clamped onto Sarbai several times, sometimes biting the larger dog's neck, sometimes lunging for his legs.

    While most of the day's more than 10 matches drew little blood, this one was different. Jack and Sarbai tore each other's mouths with the first bites. Blood flowed, staining the dogs' faces and flanks.

    They fought for about 15 minutes as a light snow fell. Eventually the pace slowed until the dogs, exhausted, at last stood almost motionless, tongues out. The referee signaled for rest. The first round was a draw.
    The legality of such spectacles is unclear. Russia's criminal code includes a statute forbidding cruelty to animals, but to date, animal rights advocates and dog breeders agree, it has not been used against volkodav fights.

    The statute's language is vague, and Elena Maruyeva, director of the Vita Center for Animal Rights Protection, a private organization in Moscow, said the government did not interpret it broadly. "In practice it is very, very hard to prosecute a person under this law," she said.

    Enlarge This Image
    [​IMG] Sarbai, with his trainer, Aleksandr Fedyakin, is a 135-pound shepherd’s dog that took part in the recent tournament in a forest area south of
    Moscow.



    Multimedia

    [​IMG]Video



    [​IMG] Sarbai fought with Jack, above.



    Enlarge This Image
    [​IMG] Between rounds of the fight between Sarbai and Jack, another dog, Khattab, above, extended his undefeated record.


    The dog owners say that because the fights are not forbidden, they are allowed. They note that government officials know about the tourneys, and the association publicizes the results. Fans also sell plainly labeled videos of the fights.

    "We are a semi-open organization," said Yuri Yevgrashin, the chief referee for the day's events.

    continued below.....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2008
  17. Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    Continued from above......

    Whatever its official status, the sport appears to be under no significant threat. Ms. Maruyeva and an official at another of the principal animal protection organizations in Moscow said that so far, they had not pushed for bans on wolf dog fighting. Instead, they hope for other measures, like restrictions on the breeding of attack dogs, registration of wolf dog breeders and enacting standards for their care.

    On the court, the second round began. The dogs locked jaws and began tumbling against snow banks. Jack still would not quit. The momentum seemed to turn. Could the smaller dog win?

    "I am with you, Jack!" a red-faced man screamed, holding a plastic cup of vodka. But the second round ended like the first — with two exhausted dogs.

    Under the association's rules, dogs are sorted into two classes for age and weight. They are juniors until age two and a half, when they are classified as adults. Middleweights must weigh less than 62 kilos, about 136 pounds. Any dog larger is a heavyweight.

    The largest, weighing roughly 200 pounds, are not highly regarded. "They are too slow," Mr. Yevgrashin said.

    Each fight lasts until one dog shows fear or pain — by dropping its tail, squeaking, whimpering, refusing to fight or snapping its jaws defensively, all grounds for instant disqualification. There is no scoring. There are only winners and losers or, in fights that continue for three rounds without an animal yielding, draws.

    Sometimes the outcome is clear within a minute. Other times, fights last more than 45 minutes. A veterinarian is always on hand, Mr. Mikhailov and Mr. Yevgrashin said.

    Between Sarbai and Jack's rounds, other dogs fought. One was called Koba, the nickname used by Stalin. He won.

    Another was named Khattab, after a Jordanian-born terrorist who fought in Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Chechnya before Russia's intelligence service killed him with a poison-soaked letter in 2002. He won, too, in the junior middleweight class, extending his undefeated record to eight wins.
    Many dogfights in Russia are said to be tainted, with steroid-swelled dogs, or animals smeared with wolf fat to confuse or intimidate their foes, or dogs' mouths injected with Novocain to make them fight without hesitation. But Edgar Grigorian, Khattab's owner, said that at this level the matches were clean.

    "We are adamantly against cheating," he said. "I can always tell a dirty dog in a fight, and a good judge will always see it."

    Mr. Grigorian and several other breeders and association members said that there was no prize money, but that successful fighters were used to sire puppies, which could sell for more than $500 each.

    In two days at the sanitarium, no admission fee was charged and no gambling was visible, although the breeders said there might be some private side bets.

    The previous night, owners and fans had gathered in the sanitarium to celebrate their sport. Behind a hotel room door, a huge dog guarded a metal bowl of meat. When Mr. Yevgrashin opened the door, the dog stared at a stranger and growled.

    Mr. Yevgrashin closed the door. Shamil Dotdayev, who sells videotapes of fights and copies of his book, "Caucasian Volkodavs," reflected on the tournament ahead.

    The fights, he said, help preserve breeds with ancient roots in Central Asian and Caucasus life and with a continuing utility in food production. The dogs that succeed, he said, are an essential part of this hard, canine lot — the pack leaders.

    Animal rights groups disagree. They say the breeding system rewards the attributes needed for fighting, which are narrower than those for guarding a livestock herd or leading a pack.

    Mr. Dotdayev admitted that his interests were broader. He poured shots of vodka and said that dogfighting had an almost irresistible draw, and that studying fighting dogs can become a shepherd's or mountain man's obsession.

    "The dogs teach us," he said. "You cannot look at a dog and tell who it is. The dog is on the inside, not on the outside. It is in his spirit."

    "It is the same with people," he added, and lifted his glass.

    On the basketball court, Jack and Sarbai were led back for a third round.

    Sarbai quickly pulled Jack to the snow. Each time Jack escaped he was pinned anew, until he was spent and began to snap his jaws, signaling defeat. His tournament was over. Sarbai advanced to the next round.
     
  18. doglovern

    doglovern Pup

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    bully "kutta" means bully "dog"--KUTTA IS DOG in pakistanian.
    so,my friends do you think it's a certain breed any longer?...
    but anyway, it's said that some breeders are now trying to make bully kutta a
    standard breed by havig a standard look;size;temper.etc.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2008
  19. Mr.lee

    Mr.lee Big Dog

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

    i didnt read all the post... but when a bigger dog vs a small dog who will win? many people will say that the bigger dog will win but that not how it works...its not like a bigger boxer going against a light weigh boxer...
    it more like a heavy weight boxer with a knife vs a light weight boxer with a knife... know who do you think is going to win...the one that is able to attack with speed and move quietly to avoid attacks...
     
  20. New2Game

    New2Game Pup

    Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang


    thats a really good way of looking at it. as i started reading that post i was thinking, the bigger boxer. i'm a big guy so of course i would think that right, lol. but then when you toss a couple knives in the ring, my strength and size doesnt do a whole lot for me now that my opponenets got the same ability to inflict pain upon me. great analogy!
     

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