A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

Some more information on the Tosa Inu for comparison:

The Tosa (Tosa-Ken, Tosa-Token, Tosa-Inu, Japanese Mastiff), was bred for, and has been used for many years; as a fighting dog. Historically, the tradition of dog fighting was popular in many Japanese districts, but especially in the Tosa district of Shikoku. The product of thoughtful eugenic manipulation by the Japanese; the Tosa dogs active in fighting, originally; were not the present-day incarnation. The primogenitor of the modern day Tosa was the medium sized Nihon-Inu; the indigenous Japanese dog which was originally bred to hunt wild boar, and the incorporation of Occidental breeds. In 1854, the Japanese Government repealed the National Isolation Policy, this reversal began the steady influx of foreign tourism. Increasingly, traditional Japanese dog fighting began pitting the European dogs against the indigenous, Japanese Nihon-Inu. The smaller Nihon-Inu began routinely loosing against the substantially larger Occidental breeds.

These losses were devastating for the Japanese, who viewed any defeat as dishonor. Gradually, Tosa district breeders attempted to develop a larger, more truculent fighting dog, by incorporating European breeds such as: the Mastiff, Great Dane, Bulldog, Bull Terrier, and Pointer. In 1876, the German Pointer was incorporated into the breed because of their concordant temperament, and highly developed olfactory sense; which is fundamental for predation. The Mastiff (1874), was introduced because of their exceptional musculature, and the enormity of their cranial structure. However, this incorporation produced a ponderous specimen, so Great Danes(1924), were introduced to mitigate the prodigious size with dexterity and athletecism. Fundamentally, the Bulldog(1872), was sought for its’ punitive bite, powerful front-end, and truncated-stop; while the Bull Terrier(date unknown), increased tenacity.

Although the coalescence of these breeds produced the Tosa, each successive incorporation required breeders to breed back to the incipient Tosa for a minimum of three generations; until the current breed standard was established. Nearly one hundred years ago, this cross- breeding resulted in the incipient form of the present-day Tosa. The Tosa-Inu was eponymously named for the district in Japan from which it was developed. Gradually, the Tosa-Inu began spreading to other districts in Japan as dog-fighting’s popularity grew. However, the popularity of dog-fighting was spurious, contingent upon the political view of the time.

During World War II, the Tosa’s numbers dwindled to near extinction, and few remained in Japan. However, the Tosa began to flourish in Korea and Taiwan where it had been exported, previously. After World War II, the resurgence in the popularity of dogfighting promoted the collaborative efforts of Japan, Taiwan, and Korea to resurrect the Tosa-Inu.

This collaborative effort produced an intrinsically fierce fighting animal. In the Japanese style of dogfighting, the Tosa was expected to fight soundlessly, relentlessly, and without cowering. Through selective breeding, the Japanese refined the Tosa into a large, agile, athletic dog; disinclined to barking, intelligent, and fearless.

Males are powerfully built, ranging in size from 65 cm. at the shoulder, to more than 76,5 cm; and weighing between 63,5 kg. to over 91 kg. Competitively, however; the optimal combatant ranges between 50 to 68 kg. Females are smaller in proportion. However; Japanese tradition proscribes fighting between females.

Although dogfighting in Japan has always been ensconced in pageantry and ceremony, the tradition of two handlers, simultaneously ensconced in pageantry and ceremony, the tradition of two handlers, simultaneously escorting the Tosa into the fight arena; was borne of necessity. Ostensibly, the Tosa's tremendous strength required two handlers.

The Tosa has a large, broad skull with a medium length muzzle. The neck is exceptionally strong, and generally has a dewlap, however; unlike other heavily jowled mastiffs, the Tosa is not prone to drooling. The chest is particularly broad with exceptional spring to the ribs. The thighs are well muscled with only a slight bend at the hock. The coat is short, and dense; with color ranging from red, fawn, or dull black. While the embodiment of the ideal human or canine form is rarely seen; there are stringent physical and aesthetic qualities which are narrowly defined for the Tosa. Among equal specimens, red is the preferred color. White markings are only permissible on the chest, never on the face or muzzle; and the bite must be scissor. The skeletal structure of the Tosa must be large, small bones are indicative of an inferior genetic specimen; as are any signs of timidity or reticence in temperament. The life expectancy of the Tosa is 10-12 years. The most common health problems are those associated with giant breeds; such as: joint inflammation, hip dysplasia and intestinal bloat resulting from over-exercise.

The average litter size is six to twelve pups, but because of the immense size of the bitch; owners must be vigilant to ensure that puppies are not inadvertently crushed by their mother. There are no exceptional problems associated with whelping, except; due to the contentious nature of the breed, the puppies can inflict substantial injury to littermates during play, which can often appear alarmingly atavistic.

In Japan today, dogfighting is still practiced; and the Japanese revere the Tosa as the embodiment of a warrior. Historically, the Samurai were instructed to study the Tosa during combat to learn fearlessness, tenacity, and courage. Surprisingly, the rules governing Japanese dogfights are stringent and complex, and the Japanese have ennobled Tosa dogfights with all the pageantry and ceremony of Sumo Wrestling. In Japan; the Tosa is referred to as the "Sumo" dog because of its’ great size and strength. Recondite and metaphorical, Tosa dogfights are not fought to the death. In Japan; unbridled aggression or expedient victories are discouraged in dogfighting. Anthropomorphized to be warriors, in the fight arena; the Tosa is judged: by the duration of the fight, the quality of the opponent, courage, and endurance. A combatant is more highly respected If he fights courageously and for longer durations. Those competitors with many "quick wins" will be ranked lower than the competitor who routinely lasts the duration of the 30 minute bout.

The following ranks comprise the various fight classes in Japan:

Maegashira: Amateur fighter

Komusubi: Professional fighter, 4 rounds

Sekiwake: Fighter rising in the ranks

Ozeki: Pro fighter- 10 rounds Championship contender

Yokozuna: Champion

Yushoken: Individual tournament champion

Honorary Confirmations:

Senshuken : National Japanese Grand Champion

This prestigious title may only be given during the lifetime of the dog. The combatant must be ranked higher than Yokozuna, and chosen by judges.

Meiken Yokozuna : Warrior Grand Champion

The competitor must have three fights as a Senshuken, with a record of no less than two wins and one draw. This prestigious honor has only been achieved by thirty two dogs from among more than four hundred fifty National Japan Grand Champions.

Gaifu Taisho: Best Fighting Technique

Adjudicated to be the most effective fighting technique employed by an individual combatant in a tournament.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

Another lit bit of info:

Dog fighting has been a popular spectator sport in Japan, as it has been in the rest of the world, although in a significantly different form. The tradition of dog fighting runs especially high in the Tosa district of Shikoku, with fighting seemingly dating back to the Hojo era, as was mentioned in the ancient document, the Tai-Heiki. Centuries ago the Japanese used dogs from the northern regions which were the predecessors of modern-day Akitas, as they were valued for their courage and tenacity. "So valued were these attributes that organized dog fights were used as training sessions for Samurai warriors in order that the Samurai might learn by observation the true meaning of courage." (Semencic, Carl. "Introducing the Tosa-Inu of Japan." Dog World, Sept. 1983.)
Tosa fighting is very similar to Sumo wrestling, and follows similar rules. Led to the fight by silk ropes, the Tosas wear embroidered ceremonial robes which can cost $30,000 or more. The two dogs are placed (robe-free) in a gazebo-shaped ring ten feet in diameter in the presence of a chief judge, two assistant judges, and three or more examiners. The dogs lock heads and attempt to push each other out of the fighting area. No sanctioned Tosa-Ken fight is to the finish. The time limit is 30 minutes and typically the fights last no longer than ten minutes. Any barking or growling disqualifies the dog. The winning dog is not necessarily the one to attack more often or more viscously. Victory depends solely on the spirit of the fighter. If a dog has been dominated by the other dog for the entire duration of a fight, the winner still has yet to be decided. Failure in the fight is decided if the dog whines, groans, or gives up by attempting to run away from the other dog or due to sheer fatigue, is unable to get up again.

Approved fighting is between male dogs only. Although females are extremely brave when compared to other breeds. Tosa-Ken females are typically used as home guardians. Like any sportsman, the male is placed under a strict living regimen and is regularly exercised. That consist of up to 10 miles a day. At most, the dogs are scheduled for two or three fights per year. The most successful dogs are given the rank of "Yokozuna", the title given to a champion in Sumo wrestling. The Tosa-Ken Dog Fighting Center in Kochi displays pictures and many materials which document the history of the Tosa-Ken. The center also maintains a showcase of the present Yokozuna (grand champion), Ozeki (second highest rank), and other high ranking Tosa-Inu's.

I also found this page really interesting: http://www.tosa-inu.com/Litter%20Announcements%20and%20Adults/8th%20Hara%20Jo%20StoneWall.htm

It is a rare look into the Tosa Inu fighting culture, it shows one of the highest ranked champion dogs being ceremonially dressed for the last time before retiring his title. All of the ceremony and tradition behind it make these quite moving pictures indeed - even if you don't enjoy Japan's style of dog matching.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

This was a very educating thread were much knowledge was posted from members and outside sources.......new members interested in the topic will gain a huge understanding of how things are being done in the world.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

Sorry, but this statement about Japan is false.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

I quickly googled and chose the first link. I hope the two news sources below are reliable enough to admit your mistake:cool: if you do not want to read another very good article on Tosa Ken, go to the second page (on top).

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1147994/index.htm

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

Rocky H. Balboa, This thread is intended to deal only with activities outside the US of A. and is for entertainment purposes only.

As usual, I do not support any activity that goes against the animal act blah blah blah blah blah blah..

Me neither:cool:

In order to compete in the world's box, are we, game-bred APBT owners (outside US of A), destined to increase our breeds size? Or remain the lightweights in this sport?

In my opinion, it's a pound for pound game. Heavy weights are alright to watch but the lighter class is where the true talent is. Light weight boxers are more entertaining to watch, There faster, more agile, and in most cases last much longer. I love watching boxing

Yes, these larger breeds do tend to be slower acting than our breed (as heavy weight boxers are slower than lightweight) but have the opportunity to be matched regularly. In addition, it is reported that BK and Kangals fight at a very fast pace and hold their ground just as well as a game-bred APBT.

Should we be faithful to the "standard" or the breed's purpose?

I think you should do a little bit of both, the standard is the blue print for the dog as to what defines it as a breed, yet purpose is also an important to maintain the traits that are so desirable in an APBT, but it also keeps the functionality of the dog true to standard.

Should we breed to the standard or performance?

You can do both:p

If the purpose of the breed has change (or is changing) shouldn't the standard?

Change? I like mine Boxers just as they are and since our rules are by weight they have to bring it to us....:cool:

Why can't we increase our breed size (as did poodles although for different reasons i.e. toy, mall, medium, large poodles) while retaining gameness?

I can't see why it's not possible, but you have to selectivly breed for it so in reality creating a new breed because the dog would no longer fit into the standard

Is it impossible to retain GAMENESS while increasing size? Does increase of size directly decrease gameness?

I guess it depends on what do you mean by increasing size? I would think no it's not impossible, just look at the much larger gamebred dogs, Mayday dogs are the first that come to mind. but if your talking about adding 100lbs to the dogs well we already have those rocky the American Bully Blue Hippo Gatermouf and they are bad ass

Should our breed never enter the box against these breeds? Why?

Well since we can't do it like they can anymore, thats the way it may appear. I will still always say they're going to have to come down in weight to get with the Elite such as the Americans still being true to a passing of heritage, because we don't gots no 120 pounders.:rolleyes:

How can we continue to state our dogs are best if we cannot prove it against WORLD opposition?

We can call weight, it's well know that weight is a big factor in fighting who wants to see the 230 pounder go agince a 140 pound lightweight? While in some cases the lightweight may win, the vast majority will not. I think when your talking about best in the box, best would be at there respective weight class, whats so good about your 120 pounder defeating my 38 pounder there is no class in that:eek:

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

the comment I have is about breeding for larger(Apbt) dogs

it has been done before in the wopper line

and in the bully breed with dogs weighing well over 100#

so with that you tell me if its a goo idea to breed for size

in both cases Ive seen no improvement

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

Actually the betting that goes on with dog fighting in Korea should be getting less and less since it's illegal to gamble in Korea except for within designated areas. Most of the points of raiding the dog fights were for the illegal gambling that was being done. Police care more about the illegal gambling than the actual dog fighting over there. Dog-fighting exhibitions are still held in the country-side from time to time and they don't get any grief from the cops as long as no large scale gambling is going on.

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

i dont know, the way i see if alot of the legends and all-time great apbt were larger. As in the blood the most people base their yards on. I'm not saying change the standard size, im against that. But larger dogs come about, it happens. From what i have "heard" kangal "dogmen" wont even put there dog up against apbt's with any size. I wouldnt bet a 30lbs dog against one but thats just me. But from understanding the kangals usually end up running away from apbt's in the 60's and 70's. Again i have never participated or seen a dog fight, nor will i ever, im just goi on heresay.
Yes we have the best dogs!

 

Re: A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kang

You breed for what works for you, if its midget wrestling, or sumo, who cares.

 

Indeed. Indeed.

 

Now that is a load of B to the S. Bullshit.

 

Hello to all ...

I'm from Serbia (eastern Europe) we have thousand of those LGD dogs here ...

Illyrian shepherd (native) Caucasian Shepherd, Alabai, Kangal ...

I can shed some true light on those breeds as best as I can ( I understand english perfectly but my writing suck ) if you want ...

 

Breeding for size and you’ll wind up with a big cur !!!!

 

[QUOTE = "Anub1s, publicación: 804296, miembro: 41734"] Hola a todos ...

Soy de Serbia (Europa del Este) tenemos miles de esos perros LGD aquí ...

Pastor ilirio (nativo) Pastor caucásico, Alabai, Kangal ...

Puedo arrojar algo de luz verdadera sobre esas razas lo mejor que pueda (entiendo el inglés perfectamente, pero mi escritura apesta) si quieres ... [/ QUOTE]




welcome friend. I am interested in your information, thank you

 

I'm not involved in any way, shape or form in dog fighting. It is disgusting
to me.
I spent A LOT of money to buy a pup from a champion Pit because I wanted to save one dog from the hell of dog fighting world.

I owned dogs all of my life, i had Sarplaninac, Rotweiller and the last one was a champion Pitbull/ AmStaff mix, I lived with him for 15 years and he broke my hearth into pieces.

You've probably heard stories how those big heavy shepherds kill wolves and eat pitbulls. There are also videos showing one CO or Kangal kill two wolves easilly and bit up or kill a pitbull in a few seconds or minutes. Well, I've seen too many dead Kangals, Ovcharcas ... to believe in fairytales.

To be continued ...

 

Contrary to popular belief in the cyber world, LGD were not bred to fight, nor kill wolves. They were bred to protect livestock from the wolves and they do it by standing between the flock and wolves when they come. They take the damage until shepherds come with their rifles. For the most part, they chase away wolves but in the winter when there is no game to prey and they have no choise but to prey the sheep, there are a lot of dead LGD over the mountains.

The working shepherds are 130-150 lbs. there are 180-200 pounds dogs but they can barely walk, let alone protect the livestock. Caucasian ovcharkas/Sarplaninac looks way bigger and heavier than they really are because of long and thick fur they posses.

Tbc ...

 

In canine world, bigger does not mean stronger nor better fighting abilities. Often, it is the opposite. LGD were bred to be big not because bigger dog is better fighter, but because of the intimidating effect.
I've owned Illyrian shepsherd for 9 years and a Apbt for 15 ... The shepherd was 150 pounds, he was big, he was strong, he was brave, but in a kill or get killed fight with a wolf, he would be dead in less tan 15 min. probably.
10 min. of any hard, continuous physical activity is enogh to tire those big and heavy LGD to the point of exhaustion.

150 pounds take its toll quickly.