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Who Here Has Successfully Inbred Their Dogs?

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by bounty, Apr 16, 2013.

  1. bounty

    bounty Big Dog

    I was referring to construction and temperament.

    Also Traits are either dominant or recessive and no amount of inbreeding or line breeding will change that.
     
  2. boilermaker123

    boilermaker123 Big Dog

    That is exactly right...it all depends on the family of dogs you are talking about as every bloodline is different. ..and no one here has discussed the reason for inbreeding. ..these dogs are bred same way as thoroughbred race horses, racing greyhounds, game chickens and prize cattle. ..the reason for inbreeding and linebreeding is once you get that ace or aces you want to produce that animal again...so you close the gene pool you do this by inbreeding....to simplify this and put it into layman terms every lock has one key to fit it and all the tumblers line up and the lock opens...the lock opened when you produced that ace of aces so you close the gene pool so you do not jumble the tumblers to that lock..you do not want to infuse any new blood at this time..so you inbreed but with inbreeding you have to cull very hard and only keep the very best individuals. .u keep inbreeding and linebreeding and when you start to lose some of those traits then you infuse some similar blood into the genepool...you also need to know your family of dogs and what works....we bred gr. Ch. Shady Lady to her brother Elwood with good results. ..in bulldog p's shady sadie. Who is in many famous dogs pedigrees including ch. Chyna...and my dog I owned bulldog p's and boneheads shady bill who needs no introduction
     
    david63, debo and CrazyHorse like this.
  3. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    debo likes this.
  4. inbreeding works great just ask the royal family...Get a grip guys and jus look at the science it don't work well for anyone. And anyone that has papers that say otherwise are hung!
     
  5. promoe

    promoe Top Dog

    inbreeding/linebreeding has been producing bulldogs that produce buldogs for years...please enlighten us of how it is not working for ANYONE?
     
    david63, debo, treezpitz and 3 others like this.
  6. Box Bulldog

    Box Bulldog Top Dog

    Are you serious? Almost all good dogs have been from a pure line bred blood familys then eventually out crossed into another pure line bred blood family. You have been on this forum for one hole day and your rambling on about all types of crazy shit! Maybe think a little before your type.
     
  7. promoe

    promoe Top Dog

    ^He was just bragging about how his dog off of dragon slayer was worth his weight in gold on another thread. who is very tightly bred down from digger.
     
  8. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    Oh no, not another fool that BLINDLY believes in what ever SCIENCE tells you. LOL....What scientist do you know that ever bred there own game line of dogs? LMAO
     
  9. FrankDublin

    FrankDublin CH Dog

    even though a breeding can be brother sister breedings some of them I wouldnt whole heartedly consider inbreeding if the breeding that produced the pair was a 50/50 breeding then itend to believe that the mating of the littermates to each other is still just a 50/50 cross will it look tighter on paper yes but its still drawing from a preety open gene pool

    if the inital breeding that created the siblings was more of an inbreeding it self like 75/25 then I would tend to look for more defects in the resulting litter
     
    kasperian and david63 like this.
  10. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. CH Dog

    Inbred double up the good things if lucky and triple up the bad things.... if unlucky. Look for constancy and bred according the standard. Best x Best time will tell the rest.
     
    kasperian and david63 like this.
  11. PITPAL1

    PITPAL1 Big Dog

    Hello all,
    I’ve not been on here for a long time so I thought I’d post a question then I saw this. I have a BS in genetics and had the opportunity to work on a project using (DK’s) the best German lines of the German shorthair pointer.
    Take this for what it’s worth, not trying to offend anyone so if u disagree that’s fine, but don’t be rude because this is just my honest experience being relayed to you on this topic.
    If you breed a pair of siblings, or parent to offspring, you will most certainly cause an increase in both desirable and undesirable traits from a genetics standpoint that may or may not be expressed. Basically you may get away with it but genetically you have set the stage. If close breeding continue’s from this point, the likelyhood of there being negative physically expressed recessive genes increase to around 75% or even more. However at this point the DNA won’t be brought back into a sound condition. Anytime soon.
    Always try to use a 3rd degree relative if possible. Cousins, great aunts/uncles. Cousins from half siblings within the same line are probably the best, but going back and forth between the dams sires sides keeps DNA balanced. I could go on all day, but I love this stuff and have some real world experience. I’ll answer any question if anyone cares enough to hear my answer.

    hope everyone is doing well.
     
  12. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog

  13. FrozenEli

    FrozenEli Top Dog

  14. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    Great response, let me think about this for a few days and I’ll put up some examples.
    From my experience full brother x sister is problematic. Half brother x sister can create exceptional animals
     
    ben brockton likes this.
  15. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    No truer words have been spoken.

    S



     
  16. PITPAL1

    PITPAL1 Big Dog

    Before my cray ass wife decided to up and split with everything I had paid for I had a McCurdy Bred walking horse that was an exceptional animal. He had two full brother X sister breedings in his last 3 generations. I didn’t want to buy him because of that but, the old lady had to have one that color. So, I can probably guess at what I did.

    Turned out he was good. Some of the best feet I’d ever seen and no health issues that we knew of. I did have my buddy send me a spreadsheet so that I could calculate the COI. It wasn’t as bad as I had thought it would be. I ran it on the last 4, 8, and 12 generations as that was all the farther it went back. Of course the 4 was the highest but not like I had expected. If memory serves me it was around 11%. The 8 was much lower, I think around 6% and if memory serves me the 12 was a bit higher than the 8. Back then they probably had to use the original foundation blood to establish the family due to the long gestation period.
     
  17. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I have said this about a thousand times to preface every breeding thread but I will say it again. I am not a breeder.

    I think the COI's and charts and science work wonders when breeding single birth species. Horses cows etc., but (and I am not a scientist nor expert, just from the outside looking in) I think it gets way more unpredictable and so many variants that accuracy in dogs is suspect.

    Every pedigree starts out as a 50/50 dog, 1/2 the sire and 1/2 the dam. The science can't account for the litter as whole when all the dogs in the litter show traits for the father and then one is carrying the traits of the mother, and then when bred that dog throws the traits of the mother.

    I think when breeding dogs those can be used as tools to say what 'should be' but it can't be 'what is' because very few litters show true conformity. Conformity is one of the things science is proofed with and variables are the things that make things in science difficult.

    If we were lining up dogs to end up with litters of all black dogs I think those tools are way effective, can be way effective. If those tools are used to line up a litter of game dogs when as members of the dog game we can't even agree to define the word 'game' I see it as a not so useful tool(s).

    It has its place and I do not deny nor do I defy science but when the two worlds collide I think breeding dogs (bulldogs) is more art than science.

    When this topic posts I always ask the questions why repeat breedings seldom if ever repeat themselves?

    Our Doorstop litter had 7 show dogs with the exception of Doorstop who was maybe the bet of the litter but had no teeth by 15 months. The second litter was a run of the mill breeding with a couple decent dogs, a game plug or two and a couple three curs.

    Babbling.

    S
     
  18. PITPAL1

    PITPAL1 Big Dog

    I believe one reason APBT’s seem to be more tolerant than other breeds is due to the fact they are a diverse breed to begin with. I don’t for a second believe the real APBT was a cross of some English bulldog and a now extinct terrier. That’s not science, it’s speculation at best and a complete fabrication at worst. I don’t even know how or who can up with that crap because there are tons of paintings and memoirs that have depicted and described dogs just like the APBT’s we have today more than 400 or 500 years before the supposed terrier bull cross was developed. And they weren’t just in a single country. Those paintings and writings came from Spain, Portugal, France, one could argue that even Italy, Switzerland, Greece and probably a Scandinavian country or two have all depectex these dogs long before what they are telling us is how they came to be.
    That makes for a pretty diverse gene pool right off the back. I for one would never do a brother sister, or even a half brother half sister breeding on a Doberman. When I was a kid my uncle dated this girl that had a Doberman. It accidentally bred its sister and all the pups were either still born or badly developed. Organs on the outside, no eyes, deformities that would make you sick to look at. But Dobermans have a tight genetic pool they are starting with.

    I have one more example. After WWI the Germans developed their Kuhzhars (German SHP) to be some of the most sought after gun dogs in all the world. They didn’t have a problem selling them out of the country but they did have a problem with the primarily white coat. So most of the white ones were culled imidiately. The trait however is a recessive that may be expressed in a great way phenotypically or not at all. They never were able to get rid of it because of this and some white dogs made it into Denmark and a few other countries. The US imported a bunch and we had a good program for a long time. Some would argue we still do however the breeding in the US has been driven more towards lighter boned dogs with a focus on pointing and hence the retriever, water dog, and tracking instincts aren’t what they were. They are also less durable, at least on my opinion.
    So, the. Came WWII. And Germany once realizing defeat tried to hide or transport the dogs out of the country. That didn’t work and they lost most of their great dogs and had a terrible time trying to regain the the traits that made it what it was. Germany had to resort to bringing dogs back from from all over the world and eventually they made them much better.
    I was asked to contribute to a breeding program that used three lines that were a blend of German, Hungarian, dogs. Scandinavian, Russian, and some contributors that had been sent back from India where there were still some British folks occupying areas. The third used a real tight family that started off with a hodge podge of dogs from everywhere including the US and Canadia and even a few really good dogs from Turkey of all places.
    This line I believe was able to be bred much tighter due to the fact the gene pool was more diverse in the beginning because of the fact the dogs came from all over the world in a bunch of colors shapes and sizes.

    we utilized this family more than the other two, but individuals of all three and a couple from the US were thrown in along the way. After the 4th generation the characteristics the team was going for started to come together and huge amount of money being spent was curtailed and people began being released. I was lucky enough to be be kept on for another 18 months but mainly as a consulting source and researcher. I only got to make one trip over to Germany during that time but the fifth generation of dogs were amazing. And they continued to get even better. I was able to get one out of that gen and I’ll be forever grateful that I took the dog instead of the release bonus. The graduate professor that brought me into the project is still working in the program on a very limited basis. But I’ve seen where there are DK clubs now popping up here in the states.
    I guess what I’m getting at is that when dogs are selected for what they are meant to do they tend to get better if done correctly. I really hope our beloved bulldogs don’t turn into anything except what they’ve Always been. God knows between all the BSL and people wanting to make blue, tri, 150# dogs or basset hounds that resemble a bulldog it’s going to be a rough road and it’s going to take a lot of us to help out if we want to keep them true
     
  19. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    Just wanna get some feedback from.some of the more experienced breeders.
    Recently I attempted to do a father daughter, which did not take due to the age of the father. My next attempt to inbreed my dogs was a brother /sister. The pups came out well and a few days in began to fail.
    I'm not sure.if something was brought into the pups that they were not vaccinated for get but the rest of the yard was not able to contract do to being vaccinated. ????
    I'm one.to.believe they they were formed well and the inbreeding was a success. They and mom went to vet and seemed ok at first
    I was thinking of trying again. A good friend said try again, some.of her best came from second tries.
    It was very rough to watch and listen to 10 yrs of my direction and dreams ho south, but I'll share the experience. I'll also share a couple pedigrees. One of the breeding I just recently had to cull and bury as they failed.
    The other is my next possible breeding. I may use Illinois and I may use Hope. I may even breed both the same and see what has best turn out, keeping some of both close.
    Anyway.

    Time.some thought and reflection are the next step for me but here is what I tried and what I'm thinking next just to add more variables.to the breedings.
    The breeding I did that I just buried. Hard times are what we learn from.

    Below is my next thought. I still may try the brother sister breeding again. The only thing stopping me is from another attempt is not knowing why my first attempt failed.
    I do not want to have to go through losing a whole litter again.
    https://pedigree.gamedogs.cz/details.php?id=445632

    https://pedigree.gamedogs.cz/details.php?id=445631
     
  20. kasperian

    kasperian Real deal

    Imo. logic only goes so far in the realm of the unseen.

    Mystic Meg
     

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