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History of the APBT part one

Discussion in 'APBT History' started by Marty, Oct 22, 2004.

  1. Marty

    Marty Guest

    Part One: History
    Complete text copyright ©Marji Beach.

    The modern American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) can trace its roots back to England and the early 19th century. Crosses between “bully” type dogs and terriers eventually produced the modern APBT. Although not recognized as a “breed” and much smaller than the modern APBT, the early “bulldogs” were used as working dogs, controlling unruly bulls for butchers as well as farmers.
    These “bulldogs” resembled, phenotypically, the modern APBT but were considerably smaller, weighing in at 15-30lbs. The courage and tenacity that made these dogs good at corralling dangerous bulls made them great at the blood sport of bull baiting.

    The year 1835 saw the end of deadly bull baiting (countless thousands of dogs lost their lives to this “sport”) and the emergence of an even more sinister blood sport - dog fighting.

    To understand the American Pit Bull Terrier, it is imperative to understand the breed’s fighting origins.

    The lower class had used blood sports as an outlet for their frustration and aggression towards the monarchy - pit fighting was, in essence, an outcry and an outlet for that aggression. Dogs were bred to be courageous, utterly devoid of pain sensations (they, no doubt, felt pain but were bred and encouraged not to express that pain), tenacious and determined.

    A quality that was never bred into them was human aggression. Human “aggressive” (aggression may not be the most appropriate term, it is more likely that these dogs simply had a lower bite threshold) dogs were undesirable as these dogs required extensive handling prior and during their fights - most of theses dogs were also family pets so no human “aggression” was ever tolerated.

    Dogs that exhibited human “aggression” were typically killed, meaning that only human friendly lines were perpetuated and desired. It is highly unlikely, however, that these culled dogs were naturally more aggressive towards humans than their bred counterparts but their bite threshold may have been much lower meaning that it did not take much for them to turn around and bite their handler. Animals were bred for an increased bite threshold, as far as humans and only humans were concerned, which decreased the likelihood of humans becoming victims of dog bites.

    In 1898, Chauncy Bennet formed the UKC, a breed registry aimed solely at the registration and acceptance of pitbulls. The AKC had wanted nothing to do with pitbulls, so Bennet sought to create an organization that would represent the breed as performance dogs. Mr. Bennet added “American” and initially dropped “Pit” from the APBT’s name but public outcry let to “Pit” being added back to the name - thus the American Pit Bull Terrier.

    For a pitbull to be accepted into the UKC the dog had to have won three fights - a requirement that was later dropped. Another registry that was started solely for APBT’s, the American Dog Breeders Association was born in 1909. The ADBA was started by Guy McCord who was a close friend of one of the founding fathers of the modern APBT, John P. Colby. The ADBA was created to test the performance quality of a APBT without actual pit fighting; the ADBA’s main focus was on weight pulling competitions with a spattering of conformation shows.The AKC decided to register Pit Bulls but under a different name - the Staffordshire Terrier, which was later changed to the American Staffordshire Terrier in 1972, or AST. Up until 1936, Pit Bulls and AST’s were physically identical. After 1936, AST’s were bred solely for conformation and their breed requirements became much more stringent. APBT’s were being bred for both performance (fighting) as well as conformation shows and the breed’s standard became much more lenient. The AST’s, phenotypically, became “flashier” with blockier heads, larger chests and a thicker jaw while the APBT’s varied phenotypically from lanky to stocky. Although the phenotypic expression varied in the APBT, relative weight, size and proportion remained constant and dogs over 60lbs were rarely seen. Both AST’s and APBT’s were bred to be exceptionally sturdy and extremely human friendly, not to mention athletic, courageous, and tenacious.
     
  2. The lower class had used blood sports as an outlet for their frustration and aggression towards the monarchy - pit fighting was, in essence, an outcry and an outlet for that aggression. Dogs were bred to be courageous, utterly devoid of pain sensations (they, no doubt, felt pain but were bred and encouraged not to express that pain), tenacious and determined.
    I would like to see your sources for this claim. rather, I would say the blood sports dog fighting in particular after the banning of bull baiting fits better into the Stratton mold. That a hard rutal life bred a tendancy towards hard brutal sports. Pugalism was popular at the same time. In fact the first orgainized set of boxing rules dates from 1743. Althought the first person to wear the title of heavy weight was James Figg from 1719-1730.
    Infact, the populace of England at the time show very little inclination towards an anti-monarchy stance ( at least in England) Politcal currents at the time were aimed more at ending privilage of the aristocracy, the purchase of titles by succesful merchants, and the unequal policy of virtual representation.
    Not trying to rain on your parade but any history should be accurate.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2004
  3. Marty

    Marty Guest





    Are you talking about the american pitbull terrier or boxing?
     
  4. I was talking about boxing. It's rise in England parralels the height of bull baiting and rise of dog fighting. All (boxing, bull baiting, dog fighting) existed at the same time and in the same social conditions and presumably attracted the same type of spectators. The gernal popularuty of boxing without any overt anti-royalist sentiment would seem to indicate a similar lack of anti-royalist sentiment among those who went to bull baiitng and dog fighting matches.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2004
    culabula likes this.
  5. Roland64

    Roland64 Pup

    "The gernal popularuty of boxing without any overt anti-royalist sentiment would seem to indicate a similar lack of anti-royalist sentiment among those who went to bull baiitng and dog fighting matches."
    That's making an assumption. Not picking a fight, but any documentation would be great. After all you did ask for Martys. Thanks
     
  6. A quick google search fails to show any real lower class anti-royalist sentiment. In fact with conditons as hard as they were we would expect to see 4 possible options. 1 as suggested by marty would be dissastifaction with the ruling class in the form of antiroyalist sentiment/ 2) Anti-virtual representation outcries. This is a well documented fact. In fact in protest of the virtual representation system that nearly excluded London the biggest city in England from any membeship in parliament led the mayor of London to declare his support for our own war of independance. yet we have no indication that this anti-virtual representation sentiment was carried on to it's extreme in blaming the royal family. 3) Imigration to escape the oppression. This is also clearly evident in the historical rolls. A simple check of imigration information will show this. 4) Any real anti-royalsim would be reflected in a lack of partriotism yet as the linK I am providing will show it was not until 1850 that the Royal Army suffered recruitment problems. http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/economics/history/paper9/Conj.ps.


    Warning the refrence is buried deep in a pdf document so i have pulled up the pertinent parts here,

    The rural surplus in turn helped to keep down urban wages, and this pressure was exacerbated in many sectors as skilled male craftsmen were displaced or challenged by the introduction of machinery, by the employment of female workers in traditional male occupations such as the weaving of woollen cloth, and by changes in the organisation of production, for example in the manufacture of clothing and footwear, which undermined the traditional position and organization of the skilled male journeymen.The very modest progress revealed by the present estimates is also consistent with other indicators of an abundant supply of unskilled labour; for instance, the ease and speed with which the huge number of navies wasobtained to construct the railways in the 1840s (Mitchell, 1964, 322-3; Hawke, 1970, 327); or the fact that it was not the 1850s that the Army began to experience serious problems of recruitment and initiated a succession ofmeasures to improve the infantryman's basic gross pay of 13d. per day which had prevailed since 1797 (Skelley, 1977).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2004
  7. Marty

    Marty Guest


    Here is the link
    http://dogs.about.com/cs/breedprofiles/a/pitbull_history.htm
     
  8. Marty

    Marty Guest

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2004
  9. I wish About.com published source material. All I have been able to find on her is that she is a 22yo student at UC Davis majoring in Animal Science and psycology. I am tryign to find numbers for the number of executions at Tyburn Prison for sedition or other supporting or disproving information.
     
  10. The size of the original Bull & Terrier crosses was determined by the size of the Bulldog used (which related to how much of the original Molloser was retained) & what kind of Terrier was used for the outcross. The White Terrier & the Black & Tan terriers were small, but the Blue Paul Terrier could weigh over 60lbs. Most breeders preferred the smaller more agile dogs.
     
  11. Origianl Mollesr.

    The bulldog is not Mollesr.
    its Hycrani or Indian.
    the Mollesser was not even heard of untill around three hundred b.c.when Alexander the Great brought back his dog 'Peritas'from Bactica.then bred it to the local sheep garding/herding breeds around Greese.witch resulted in what the called "Mollesers".
    Periras was a great Hycrani or Indian hound that could kill a lion single handed.
    the extinct Mollessers was a cross between the Indian dogs and the cur bred sheep gerding breeds bred around Eprius.
    and it resmbles the two breeds quite clearly.
    the Indian dogs had found there way to the UK about five hundred years before Alexsander was even born!
    infact they probs came from a Scythian migration.

    The ancester of the Bulldog is not the Molesser dog.
    it is the Indain dog.
     
    grove likes this.
  12. Do you write articles?i just seen your post on the other thread.
    if you do then please be sure to right a article explaining that the ancester of the Bulldog is not Mollesers.
    by claiming the bulldog as molesssers robs the bulldog of around four thousand years of history!
    this is (although not your fault)a scandle,and a cover up of history.
    there is ample proof the Bulldog is the Indian dog of pre dynasty times,it has eastern europen and centrel asian origens..not Greek.
    Greece was the gate way to Europe, and these dogs enterd europe,then further west by many routes.and with many diffrent tribes.
    there is evidence they reached westen europe by taking a route from by the Steppes that went behind Greece and across Italy onto spain, then to Ireland,about five hundrend to possibly a thousand years before Alexsander and the Epruis/Mollession tribes were even known.

    Threw out are history records have been purosly destroyed.
    every ruler from the Persians to the Romans destroyed documents and canged religion so the people they had conquerd would follow suite.
    i belive this is were all the evidence of the bulldogs origen went.
    this is why we backwards and thought the world was flat for thousands of years!

    This part of history needs rectifing.
    infact all dog breed origens need a serious re classification.

    All the best.
     
    grove likes this.
  13. Sorry for any typo errors.
    me phone is shit lol.im typing this on a screen whats shatterd to pieces.
     
  14. The first peoples to pop up with this dog(or any modified dog breed for that matter)were the Sumarians.
    infact the Godess 'Illanna'who was the godess of animals and healing,is most certianly sclupterd with what we would pass as a huge bulldog.and her sculpter was dated at 2700 B.C.
    however she was well dead by this time,and she probably reined around 8000 B.C.
    thats 10,000 years ago!
    other sculpters were found at Lagash,and are the same dogs as Illanna is seen with.these dogs were the property of King Sumu Ilu(Illanna and Ilu?conection right there)
    ,King of the Larsa people.these were dated to 2300B.C. but again we may well be correct to presume King Sumu Ilu lived around 6000B.C.
    witch is 8000 years ago.
    this type of dog keeps cropping up again down the ages in Babylonion,Medlan and Persian and Assirian texts.the most noteble being Assiren king Assurbuniples hounds being led to a hunt,and on a hunt at 660 B.C.in Niveth.
    all these things can be checked out.
    the evidence is there.
    and the Bulldog aint "Mollession).
     
    culabula likes this.
  15. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    What Indian dogs? England before the time of Alexander the Great , how did the Indian dog find their way to England ? where you seen this ? Britain at that time was celtic , and had similar dogs as the Celts in Europe , who had a type of dog called Alaunts , and it is them that later developed in to the Bulldog
     
    culabula likes this.
  16. Hellow mate.im grateful for the discusion!...i dont know were i got all this from mate,but its hardcore reserch whats took me my whole life to figure out.....

    The Alaunt is the Indian/Hycrani dog mate.....
    the Alani were one of the most powerful tribes bred down from the Samarian people.they first settled somewere in Scythia,and they should be acknowleged as the first or main sorce for introducing the 'Indian'dog (so called by scolers of old),into main land and western Europe..they are most certainly the link to the Alaunt dog and the Celts.

    These dogs before they were called Alunts,were known as Indian/Hycrani dogs*.they have a centrel Asian origen.
    they were by far the most powerful dog ever bred by humanity.
    they are the anseter of the Alaunt,and the Alaunt**is the anseter of the Bulldog.


    The Bulldogs history is diffrent to what the history books let us belive mate.


    *other names down the ages and by verious tribes in the areas they were bred are...
    ...Medas.Albanians.Gelonians.Hyrcanians.Assyrians.Persians.Largas.Ste
    ppes.Sers.Magnesii.Colophian.Tartarys.
    all these names, and all the artifacts to match these names, indicate a Mesopotamian origen mate.
    Gratius refaird to them as 'Indian'dogs...and Alexsander refaird to them as Hycraini or Hicani/Indian dogs.

    **the Alunt is worthy of a hole new chapter mate.
    the Alani tribes spread west over thousands of years.later they even provided the Roman Calvary for Northern Europe.
    they were well established in western Europe as far as Spain and Britian by 400AD,but had started to head west from Scythia about 800-1000 years before this.hence the true route to how this dog got here.
    If you look at a map the Scythia kingdom was the whole of the Steppes.i belive the Celts were basiclly a expansian of Scythians west beyond the Steppes.
    they (Scythians)originated North of the Sumarians and had the same dogs.infact the Scythian tribes indicate the first settlements of Horses and Dogs between the Northern normadic tribes and the Hyrcania plain dwellers further south of them.
    All these areas in this part of the world at this time had quarry rageing from Tigers,Lions,bears,Hyenas,wolfs,wild boar,antelope ,asses ,buffalo, huge deers and goats and so on.the landscape also veryied from huge mountians to extensive forests and plains,huge lakes and rivers.
    theres no land on Earth that exsists like that today.and no dogs like the dogs what lived in them times either..

    The Alani apear in history before the Greeks,and there dogs were still known as Alunts as late as Columbus days.
    they were still called Alunts in Britian as late as the 1300s as the first ever huning book by the secound Duke of York (Edward?i cant remember lol)points out...

    But yeah,the Alaunt dog is the "Indian"dog the Greeks and Romans like Gratius speak of.

    All the best mate.
     
  17. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    This info is wrong "l
    These dogs before they were called Alunts,were known as Indian/Hycrani dogs*.they have a centrel Asian origen.
    they were by far the most powerful dog ever bred by humanity.
    there is no record of any indian dogs at that time ( 2500 years ago )coming to Europe , every nation, every area , had some form of guard , catch dog , some form of Running dog , some form of Sheep dogs , some form of send hounds ,
     
    culabula likes this.
  18. grove

    grove Big Dog

    Soze think dogs from Inda/Asia.
     
  19. I never said there is records of any Indian dogs coming to Europe.
    I just speculated how they did arrive here..my speculation is pain staking reserch thats a resanoble therory.
    i never once said theres records of them traveling a certain route,i never once said that.all i done was try to work out witch route they took.

    There is records of Indian/Hycrani/Medlan dogs exc.
    Gratius the Roman poet even refaird to them as such.
    thats not something ive got wrong.
    i dont know what they would have been called in 2500 BC?but the Greeks and Romans defintly called them that,and there is tons of proof they did to.

    Whats your speculation or oppion on how they got here?
    i dont see many people trying to work that one out to be honest.
    But if your sure im so wrong(i may well be but my reserch is well thought out and resonable when you sit down and think about it)then surly you must have your own veiws youed like to share?
    im all ears man.
    all i done was say i thought they came from cenrel Asia somewere before Alexsanders time.they were known as Indian/Hycriani exc by the Greeks and Romans and they came though Europe with with steppe or Scythian tribes,and that how the Celts had them.
    another reasonable suggestion could be Alexsander introduced them to Europe after hed conquerd Persia.but im under the impression they were here before that.

    All the best mate.
     
  20. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    Whats your speculation or oppion on how they got here?
    whats your speculation on how they got to India ?
    why do you think they had to come from India ? the Alaunt developed in Europe ,
     

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