conformation vs performance

Can a fair argument be proposed ADBA show conformation is the ideal standard to facilitate athletic performance (strength, agility endurance for pulling, catching, hunting etc) more often than not?

 

that was the thought at one time,,,
IMO they are loosing structure and getting skinnier,,,
the ultimate running machine and more flexable wrestler is about it,,,
a far cry from real performance in a sixteen foot box where running is not an option...

Balance is key,,,
not too long and lanky,,,
not too squat and muscular,,,
good lungs and a heart are crucial...


Its one thing to have a sportscar,,,
another to test it out,,,
sometimes the ugly car is tuned properly and blows the sports car out...

I thought confirmation was everything when it comes to build,,,
but really,,, good bulldogs come in all shapes and sizes,,,
I asked this to a successful breeder once,,,
and hes ideal build is a bit lower backend,,,
as he put it,,, its the power that drives them...

that leverage is hard to take down,,,
a confirmation correct bulldog has less leverage,,,
the higher the backend,,, the less driving power
and if they duck their front down they loose alot more...

say the correct bulldog is wrestling with its back feet planted,,,
how does thier backend come into play???
not much as they are twisted with the front to the side,,,
a small back end dog wont twist so easy and have a very strong core,,,
most that do start to twist just roll while the taller dog might sit there contorted,,,
this is how he explained it to me and it sounded good and seems to wotk for him...

I think if we atart to breed for just confirmation we shall call them something else,,,
at the same token you dont want to end up with uniform squat dogs either...

Champion Midnight Cowboy and Grand Champion Spike are good examples of the more squat driving build,,,
both dogs wre hardly off thier feet and as mr hargroves put it when he lost to spike,,,
the only way to beat a dog like that is to bring the same,,, such as cowboy,,,
beacause a short squat muscular dog pushes right through a confirmation correct bulldog,,,
its seem that a shorter dog would have a leverage advantage like a base of a mountain...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [28] :: GARNER'S SPIKE (5XW)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [146] :: (CARVER'S) DAVIS' MIDNIGHT COWBOY (3XW)

not great pics to really show their builds,,, but spike and cowboy are more on the squat side with big chest,,,
short inbetween head and tail and absolute driving machines that never be on their backs,,,
cowboys brother chivo had more body to him but was low in the backend also like the gabe dog,,,

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [2018] :: DAVIS' CHIVO (3XW-1XL)

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [380753] :: ROCHESTER COMBINE'S GABE 1XGL

...all though in the picture this dogs back legs are back a bit,,, you can still see the lower backend I mentioned,,,
and like spike and cowboy,,, these two never went to their back...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [289393] :: MTN BOY'S JAKE
...I sure like how this ace was built ,,, a confirmation correct bulldog thats all performance...

 

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [374549] :: JENNY 2XW

this is an extreme example of a midnight cowboy dog,,,
more bully than most but can you question her performance???

an adba confirmation built dog is getting to be a runner of sort,,,
great for treadmill contests and maybe utilzed as a running catch dog or something,,,
but in a box there is four corners and running gets you no where,,,
they come in all shapes and sizes and still perform,,,
the vast genetics and looks behind them has kept them good for this long,,,
I dont see a reason to CONFORM and limit the standard and genetics,,,
all we would have is unhealthy show dog like the rest of the breeds that bred themselves in narrow corner...

the last pure LONZO bred dogs were pathetically squat which was the demise of the line,,,
its one thing to be squat or lanky,,, its another to know how to use it to your advantage...

 

Lonzo Line

...read what others think about the lonzo dog as it pertains to confirmation...

 

I don't know much about conformation, but some of the most punishing small dogs that come to mind are Jones Hotdog, built like A wiennie dog!!! This dogs first match he was about 15/16 mo. I tell you I know for sure this dog twice went into two good dogs the same weekend!! Heavy breed on E. Crenshaws Major and OLD lightner blood when this litter dropped in 1975 she was over 10 yrs. old. She was bred to Corns Kojack (Snow X Lucynester) litter mate sister one of my foundation gyps! Another I cant remember the name but owned by Bobby Hall had A long head like A collie just cut A dog to pieces, might have been (Morfin) breeding! Personally breeding for conformation will make them look pretty but...........we all know where the true test is! Then another I just thought of, Bob McK. Mutt Sorrels bred gyp to Stu Fowler, would have won first in A AKC Labradore class, didn't look like A pitdog at all!! Whiped Mayfields 1 X, in less than 45 min.! In fact I have seen a lot of better than average you would swear they wernt pure! They were bred for performance! Never been to A conformation show but a lot of the dogs I see look like they were put through keeps. But as we know when in A keep they peak you just cant keep them that way! Over all though I think the shows are good just don't get carried away trying to make them look better than the one that won last show! (just my opinion)

 

I breed for my ideal conformation and cull it for ideal performance. Can't maintain or strengthen a family on breeding for just one of those traits. That and the real bad elements is why the game is shit.

 

Just looking through some of these old bloodlines! $35 makes you wonder don't it!!! I kinda think between the people I talked to Hienzel X E.. Crenshaw ?????? I can think of A couple dogs that through pups like that but it would only be speculation!!! LOL Who knows might have come from anywhere A pup somebody lost and somebody else found!!?? He sure did take care of business!!

 

...good reads trotline,,,
and good perspective chincheck...

 

Thoughtful responses here, backed with evidence.

I submit most would agree there is no clear answer regarding an ideal conformation standard for optimal performance. However, for discussion purposes, I think there is something to be said also for an advantage of the rangier, runners constitution.

Thus we have GR CH Buck - a legendary gladiator with outstanding looks. Rangy, seemingly built for speed and endurance.

The Pit Bull Bible Online APBT Database -

Equally legendary GR CH Machobuck, although line bred off Buck, different in conformation: overall thicker, broader in the skull and chest, and more squat. Looks to me a very strong dog.

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [63814] :: EVOLUTION KENNEL'S MACHOBUCK

Any theories as to how their individual conformation enabled their particular athletic style? Can the ADBA conformation standard be used as a gauge?

 

...good read,,, machobuck looks like what you might get if you cross the mayday and buck dogs...

Im like that you used Buck as an confirmation correct animal,,,
Buck and the Jake dog were aces in every sense and the ideal confirmation seems to be a key ingredient to thier speed,,, hold out power and finish perhaps...

Everybody has their interpretation of an ACE but dogs like Buck and Jake are true,,,
I wonder how many well rounded ACES dont have and ideal confirmation???

Mayday had a sloppy build,,, one and a half dogs wide and a turner and hooch head,,,lol...
With that being said,,, his style fit and he would lay around like a sluggish snail,,,
with that sluggish build came a different type durability that enabled him to weather the storm
and he also knew how to pour it on when it was his turn and most of his contest lacked ability
and seemed more like what catchweight was gonna scratch last in which mayday always did...

ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [560] :: SOUTHERN KENNEL'S MAYDAY

...we had our fair share of maydays offspring and could say as a whole they are thick durable gamedogs...

I like the how macho bucks build is in between both his best predecessors buck and mayday,,,
not too rangy and not too stocky...

 

Elias'Pistola, I always enjoy your posts as they are information rich. I was curious about your thoughts on conformation and the point you brought up in regards to a lower backend giving extra driving power. It seems like some dogs have a much more rounded or sloped hip than others. Almost like someone took the hip bone and angled it another 20 degrees sloping down towards the rear end. Also, the dogs like this that I have seen also more aggressively bent rear legs. The combination of the two seems to help there ability to wrestle on there hind legs and not get pushed around so easy. I have one that is built like that and she can basically walk around on her hind legs. It's not like she is walking around like a person on her own but we have her do tricks and such and its eerie how well she can stay on her hind legs almost indefinitely and move around on them as well.

 

I like looking at A well built dog, but the reason I mentioned Hotdog iis because he was A half A dog high, and 2.5 dogs long!! You just had to see it (no way I can explain by writing) but when he was in hold he whipede his body so hard it almost looked like popping A whip!! Really it was kind of A waste how he was used, I personally think he could have been matched in A much faster track!! For me it's ALWAYS genetic HEALTH and GAME, and go from there! If I really message my memorie banks I could list A bunch that didn't look like any standard and were just about as good as you could ask for! Now animal shelters across the country are full of pretty dogs! Oh well those days are dead and gone, but it sure makes for interesting conversation!!

 

jenny looks like a fucking amstaff something i would hardley call a bullyson dog. I dont care how tight you breed that shit they still dont end up looking like what your talking about. you will still get dogs that look like bulldogs.Cowboy in that pic was old and hog fat how else he post to look? http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=912

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=152

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=379145

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=379145

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=28856

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=419722

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=37954

 

Damn Slim you sure have A way of writing kinda how I'm thinking LOL Between you and EP and A couple others it has sure been A pleasure! I've been reading a lot of earlier posts.....sure were a lot of flamers....if I would have looked then I would have just kept go'n!! Your right if we all liked the same horse in the race you could never get A bet down!! If they ever make A Time Machine I know exactly what I'd do after buying up some good stocks!!

 

Thank you Trotline as you bring alot old perspective,,,

Slim always a good read...

Milehighmisfit,,, I got into this ideology in a couple forms on here,,,
some were quick to beat down the lower rear better leverage theory,,,
and ones comment is a dog like that couldnt evan run long distances calling that look hyenas,,, my response is the heyena and even wolves seem to have lower backends and can run down their prey and still have sticking power once they catch them,,, and when tire the stick a throat hold and laydown letting good old gravity do its job as the say elk tries to flee dragging the
canine doing more damage than if they sat still...

another theory of mine that has less proof,,,
is the henry type earl tudor was fond of,,,
smaller backends that taper to the front and
a almost oversized head often with gold or amber eyes,,,
and often a killing machine such as zebo...

my theory is the black dog theory,,,
that these henry types are a throwback to the dogs of war that stormed the british isles,,, presumably of the mollaser type and probably date back to the
romans...

both build and a solitaire attitude back the theory,,,
as they were a one person type of dog that would kill others,,,
they were bonded until it was time to storm the villages,,,
in which these dogs of war ran next to the horses of war for good distances,,,
just to reach their destination and kill same as the wolves/hyenas with a different objective but the same results,,,
a canine with a lower backend that can run a good distance and go to war upon arrival...

I dont have much of an education but have an eye for detail and a effeceint ear,,, these are my theories and one day I hope to put it in a more legible form for future studies...anthroBULLDOGology...

 

To address the thread title, that would depend upon the main criteria your looking for....shall it be tangerines or grapefruits???...as for the post itself, who's to say you can't have a tangelo and eat that too...lol.

Seriously though, from what I can gather, the ADBA was approached by fanciers of the breed to come up with a Conformation standard. I think this was partly (if not wholly) due to the passing of the 76 dogfighting felony laws. For whatever reason, the task at hand would've been easy when taking in to consideration the relatively broad natural variations within the breed, but a decision had to be made.

In any case, I think Ralph Greenwood and Co put in a damn fine effort and perhaps wrote the best CONFORMATION STANDARD ever attempted.....Judge for yourselves!!!

....ADBA conformation rules | Nor Cal APBT Coalition

.....as you can see it was never written to be the BREED STANDARD and the best part is, nowadays, they have other events you can participate in on a FAMILY FUN DAY outing....

About the American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA) - YouTube

 

^^^Pardon me^^^.....the task at hand wouldn't have been easy...blah blah blah....