1. Welcome to Game Dog Forum

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

    Dismiss Notice

how genetics work

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by ben brockton, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. It's great to have video's and articles that try to explain some fundamentals of genetics and it makes you sound real smart when you regurgitate some of the things you have read but the reality when it comes to these dogs is that no one really had a clue about how the genetics work and if they try to convince you otherwise they are lying.
    But even if they were not lying and they actually did know something no one else knew, unless they have million dollar gene sequencers and electrolysis machines on their yard AND they somehow were able to decrypt the chemical physiology of the "junk genes" that comprise over 90% of the genome, they also won't have a clue about how and what genes are responsible for what.

    So if you consider the above statement true then the question becomes what can you do to improve or maintain the traits of your dogs. We gave up long ago trying to guess about genetics which we could not see and were out of our direct control and decided to implement a very simple but time proven strategy in our breeding program. Our program (if you can call it that) is based purely on phenotype as an expression of genotype so we choose our dogs based on visible, real observable traits and we leave aside all the theoretical aspects that we cannot know.

    Let's begin at the beginning and go through the process to see how this works. For this example we will assume that you have a litter from 2 good proven parents. In the litter there exists some variation among the pups but not much since we are also assuming that they come from related bloodlines.

    The pups have grown now and are at the schooling age. It is during this time that most of your evaluation will occur. We look for certain traits that appeal to us but these can be substituted for just about any other trait and the technique remains the same. Gameness is not evaluated at this time and will not be evaluated until the very end of the process. What we do evaluate are other traits like speed, intelligence, wrestling ability, natural air and strength of bite. Also we are looking closely at the style of the dog to see if we feel that style would be competitive against our rivals. This evaluation will continue until the very end of the process and we hope to see improvement with every lesson.

    Now we have come to the end of the schooling process and during that time we have distinguished the better dogs of the litter. At this point we will cull the rest of the dogs of the litter but you may decide to do something else with them. The important thing is that none of their genetics gets passed on to your future generations.

    After the game test we are left with only the best game dogs of the litter. These will be our future brood stock we will be breeding from. For the next step, the breeding of our selected dogs, we will match up the different traits of our dogs and breed like traits together. We like our dogs and we like their traits so we want to try and maintain those qualities in our dogs. The best way to do that I have found is to breed dogs that are most alike to each other. This seems to reduce greatly the variation among the pups in the litters and helps to reinforce or "lock in" said traits.

    From this point on the rest is just repetition over and over again. There is no great science to it and no need to collect DNA samples and run them through expensive machinery. There is no selection based on color, attitude or anything that does not directly affect the competiveness of a dog. Everything you have chosen for is visible and observable with the naked eye.

    There are many different ways one can breed their dogs. This is the way we bred ours.
     
  2. Gringo said "There is no great science to it and no need to collect DNA samples and run them through expensive machinery"


    I strongly disagree. Most educated adults would consider biology, including genetics and animal husbandry, great as a mere function of its complexity and utility. No need to "collect DNA samples" to get a more detailed and comprehensive understanding of your subject of inquiry. No need for "expensive machines" either. But it that was the case, would you be opposed to someone spending time and resources to achieve their goal? Are you opposed to expensive machines? or just machines? Would you feel better if they were inexpensive measuring instruments?

    I remember reading about a Dogman who kept track of his dog's hematocrit % before a hunt. Why would some one do that? Why we weight dogs before a hunt? Why invest in "expensive machines" like treadmills and pools?

    There are a myriad of scientific concepts you clearly fail to understand.
     
  3. Limey said "....however there is no animal in the world that has been bred in its purety of inbreeding as our breed."

    This appears to be a very inaccurate statement. I strongly disagree with most else of what you say regarding selection. But i do want to thank you for talking about your breeding program and the success you have achieved; i wish more Dogmen were a little more candid about their programs and philosophies.

    It is not a linear progression from genotype to phenotype. Phenotype is an "end result" (expression) of a number of pressures, perturbations and environments including but not limited to the genotype.

    Color is a secondary indicator. What if a subject fits your criteria/criterion for phenotype but not for genotype?
     
  4. Yes, the proof is in the pudding; and that proof is Science won out. What do you think about all the Dogmen that weren't interested in conditioning, nutrition, development or even the importance of genes and inheritance at all?

    The moral is: Don't "give up" as some would like you to think. You have the power, thru artificial and natural selection, to make better dogs (whatever that means to you).
     
  5. Books and videos are just mediums on which information is stored and retrieved. They can contain anecdotal info of the variety here or they can contain empirical data more of the sort i am advocating. One has more predictive power than the other; hence more potential value not just in dogs but in the real world as well.

    Epigenetics can teach you more about maintaining your gene pool.
    Norms or reaction can teach you about the potential of your gene pool and what signs to look for.
    Environmental consideration can be helpful when development, performance, health etc is a concern. (should yard dynamics be a concern for you? What conditions trigger arrested development?)

    The list seems endless....
     
  6. Lab science included.
    Science is a search for answers to questions. Those answers allows us to do all sorts of things like talk to each other via this medium or place an object with relative precision onto a planet far away. Those are tangible answers.

    Post-modernism really has no place in this conversation. If there is no absolute truth, then is that not an absolute truth? Pick up Higher Superstition by Gross/Levitt.
     
  7. Limey kennels

    Limey kennels CH Dog

    Torresbeag i posted this one yesterday on another topic. have edit it a bit.

    QUOTE > If you have done your home work about breeding, then you might have known that pedigree statistics are JUST THAT. Hens i said that Miss Dalotta is the tightest bred Alligator dog in the USA (wel was as she is no longer in the usa). % wize ON PAPER.

    Now pedigree statistics dont mean f..kall. Its the trowback gene pool in the dogs you breed on ore for, that detirmin the purety of the dogs in question.
    I have said hunders of times that. A 25% alligator dog can be mutchs purer dog then a 75% alligator dog. If the trowback of the 25% dog is right and the trowback of the 75% alligator dog is OF!!!!!!.
    Hensh Type behavier and coloration selection prosses wil keep help you closer to the dogs your aiming for.
    Hensh NR2 when you DONT practis these (in) breeding technics you wil get dogs that SHOOT PAST your goal and draw out or up the dogs PRIOR to the dogs your aiming at.. and thats how the cooky crumbles.

    Reading dogs is mutch mutch more importend when it comes down into reading pedigrees and claiming pure bred dogs who are pure bred on paper...

    Ecsperience has shown us that when you DISREGUARD the breeding tool type behavier and coloration. You are able to breed mutch mutch tighter PEDIGREES. And wil reach your purety goal where your dogs start to show quality ore degenaration mutch LATER.
    Then when you DO useing these breeding technics.

    HENSH nr 3 you need to OUT cross more often ore quiker. Because purety and tighten up blood comes way sooner ore quiker then you ecspect, when using these breeding tools to REDUCE genetic VARIATION...

    You might understand afther reading this that there are many diferend ways to Rome, In other words there are diferend ways in breeding pure ore tighter dogs...... Ours is one of them and the record speaks..... < end of quote.

    when breeding on pedigree and yes quality in the likes of Gamenes and breeding with random type quality dogs. your breeding in a more wide open gene pool, iventho the pedigree looks aweful tight!!.

    when you breed the same way and take coloration type and other carasteristics like behavier along in the selection prosses . you WIL most defenatly get that tighter/ purer bred dog much quiker IF your able to breed with a pre dominat producer in the first place. as those type of dogs put there visable stamp on there ofspring. bij doing so your able to reducing genetic variation. faster in order to lock on and hold on on the dog(s) your base your breeding breeding program on

    when using a less pre potend dominand producer, who produces dogs who have more ramdom difgerend type and coloration and lets say size , Then Sure at the start it wil be of little influense. but when you keep on selecting on a particulair individual like this and practising line breeding on a high performer/ producer.
    then over time you wil draw more and more of that dog (s) genes into the gene pool .
    when doing so you wil see you wil have a more uniform dogs. and get closer to the origenal dog you breed for.
    at first this way of breeding is more difeculd.
    .But sins you constand alredy drawn in the type and coloration , you might as wel use that gene pool to help slide in the rest as wel... to produce a more uniform bloodline/ famely................... having a bigger yard and be able to keep more dogs ofcours would speed up the outcome and goal your aiming at.

    Pat Patrick ones said it works like this. If we compear gameness with size. and take dogs of size to breed for size. we wil use a great dane and cross it with a irich wolf hound . The biggest ofspring we breed to a new foundland dog and there biggest ofspring wil be bred to a big Mastif.
    The ofspring from that breeding wil stil be huge in size dogs,BUT they wil be scatterbred dogs of nature.
    IF we breed a game pitbull to another game pitbull and there ofspring to another game pitbull and disreguard there pedigrees type ore famely bloodlines. You Do breed for gamenes BUT the outcome of there genes is random and have a very mixt outcome in QUALITY in the likes of everyting els that makes up a good APBT!!. and altho they ARE pure bred pitbulls within the breed they ARE scaterbred dogs!!!!. who besides producing game dogs have NO uniform quality reguarding producing the other qualitys your looking for in a compleat apbt.

    breeding the greyhound.
    In the greyhound world its the same as the Size aczample.Pedigree breeding regulations in varius countries prohibits ore forbits the use of heavy line breeding. countles of breedings and combinations are being made with champions on champions producing a very very SMALL% of high speed constand durable winners!!.
    IF the rules would have been changed and they would alouw to breed the way we do they would not only need to breed a handfull of litters as what we see today..But se a vast improvemend in more faster dogs. and way less NRS worldwide in the culling departmend.....
     
  8. Nice write up. I understand your philosophy to be "not even wrong" (if I understand it correctly). Your opening remarks are problematic because they appear to set up a straw man argument; It is a question of probability not possibility. What value do you give to each "filter" (color, behavior, size, gameness)? Are those values arbitrary? Have you seen Dr Suzuki's schema of organismal development showing the interaction of genes and environment? Now add the additional four or more developmental noises you have included in your selection process. It would seem very difficult to establish some sort of stasis.

    PP analog is a poor one. Size is an absolute with respect to gameness which is a grade that is infinitely more difficult to measure. There are more accurate methods of measuring an organism's "gene pool" than phenotype.

    Chickenonachain posted a "paradox" on pedigrees online. Read it if you get the chance. It applies here. It has yet to be answered.
     
  9. PurePit19

    PurePit19 CH Dog

    There is no perfect method of breeding because one can only see the phenotype. You can only base your genetics selections on what you see, that is the flaw in and of itself. One cannot be certain of all the gene configurations one individual dog carries, you can only make a educated guess bases on the physical characteristics the individual dog may show. With that said, I do think the most productive method of breeding, is to choose the best all around indivuals that have common lineage for a breeding program. No matter what is behind any given dog, the individual himself is key first and foremost, bloodline is second in my opinion. Inbreeding & line breeding on good indivuals will give the best results. JMHO
     
  10. PurePit19- are you saying that any scale less than the phenotype is currently not measurable? I agree with the rest of your statement (last three sentences).

    Bounty- I do not access to the site. It should be a piece of cake for you seeing as you seem to understand some of the fundamental concepts being discussed.
     
  11. Laced Wit Game

    Laced Wit Game Yard Boy

    how many of you guys that strongly resemble one of your parent (or grandparents) and also pull most of your physical & personality characteristics from?

    i cant tell you how often i hear "boy you look more like your dad everytime i see you", the reason is because im a spitting image of my dad! same hight, simliar build,very similiar features....... but not only that, i also have my dads temper, my dads big heart, and my dads athletic abilities...... my dad, is also a spitting image of HIS dad...looks,personality,temper...the whole nine..... now while i do have SOME of my moms traits (the love of arguing, her nose, some random colored hairs in my beard lol)..... but for the most part.....im like my dad!

    my point being is this is the way it worked in my case as a human, our physical features resemble each other..... & we are damn near the same person on the inside as we are the outside...... so i can see how people make theyre selections based on color/resemblence and being successfull that way........
     
  12. PurePit19

    PurePit19 CH Dog

    I'm saying that you really can't measure using anything more than the Phenotype. All anyone can do is breed based on physical characteristics. Meaning if you can't see it, you don't know what's there.
     

  13. I can see it as well. But if by success you mean maintaining or achieving some genetic archetype then most scientist esp. biologist would disagree. If success means box results, most scientist would be able to theorize a number of "options" to achieve better results. Check out Fortune's Formula by Poundstone
     
  14. rroscoe

    rroscoe Lightner Hemphill / Colby

    I feel color is a factory like the ugly meril or meral (blue marblel looking spotted turds ) they tent to have tumors and bad hips as well as poor eyes cancer issues AS WELL WHY WOULD YOU EVER WANT THAT ? So outside appearance has to Be a FACTOR i FEEL IT CAN BE A TELL OF SORTS i NEVER LIKED BRENDLE DOGS
     
  15. Limey kennels

    Limey kennels CH Dog

    aczackly my point!!.
    Hensh when we line ore inbreed we try to get as close as posible to the foundation dog we breed of. If we are able to get good dogs from the foundation individual in varius colors type, then he proves he is a good producer in the working departmend gene pool. In that case we whant to breed as close to this dogs gene pool as posible. Because he is able to do so. The outstanding working dogs he is producing from varius coloration and type ecetera. Might and probely wil NOT poses the same ability to produce as wel them selfs as the dog(s) they came out of.

    Color and type are the traights who are all to ofthen disreguarded as not importend. But can help you in locking on to the producing quality of that producing dog your in ore line breeding on.. why the hell do we inbreed!! ore line breed!! so tight on outstanding individuals in the first place??..
    we line ore inbreed to get as >close< to his ore her gene pool!!! to hang on to sirtin qualitys. To us this also means Collor looks typs ecetera.

    IF we >disreguard< the detail work to get as close to the foundation dogs gene pool as posible .... Wich ARE looks, color, behavier ecetera. then we are breeding for a very wide open and iven randon gene pool to breed of, aiming for the abilety to fool around with working abilety. Problem could be
    that >those< genes can and will be past from this foundation dogs . but could and defenatly WOULD be from dogs in >frond< of him ore her!!.... in that aspect your breeding best to best iven with a tight pedigree. The dogs as sutch are NOT!!.ore way less tightbred as one would make out ore belive..............

    Locking on to this/ his foundation dogs gene pool with Color type ecetera stears you genetily more in the direction of the dog your aiming on ore breeding of.,
    Do this long enoughf and you reduce the genatic variation. Meaning your dogs wil show more and more visible traights..

    In the past we had dogs bred and selected in that way . who where so strong in there gene pool. That a single outcross did NOT change the outcome of the dogs in type color ore behayvier ore working abilety. Just more Hybrid viger , Witch is the only rezen you need to out cross for in the first place. when you have a top notch foundation to work with.
    At times when we tought we needed some visible change in type and coloration (as one can go to tight ore pure) We needed a ""Dubbel Cross""(wonder where these words came from). Ending up with a pedigree witch contained 75% fress cross blood and only 25% famely blood.
    YET the pups that came from that dubbelcross . where stil ez 50 to 75% dominand trowbacks to the foundation famely . Hensh we ofthen say reading a dog is mutch more importend then reading a pedigree..
    If these selectioon on traights are disreguarded and we take a Bullyson bred dog as a aczample and he ore she is a 75% tight bred dog, but is not showing it in the type/ color/ mental gene pool, then he might be a tigh bred dog on paper but isend in real life having a compleat diferend gene pool as a make up as one thinks he has.... and thats how at least to us the cooky crumbles....
     
  16. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    That's not all true. some gene combos linked with certan traits. if you breed your shit long enough you can see a lot in play. Color can be a factor on a yard like anything else. If you only breed as close to spitting image in every way of the good'n in your ped. Your going to have some real fine bulldogs.
     
  17. keystone

    keystone CH Dog

    breeding between family's ..same colors ..coming ..and most of the time you already know more or les wich colors coming
     
  18. BLUE8BULL

    BLUE8BULL CH Dog

    Well that answers that......lol...AS FOR WOLVES,,ANY PROGRAMES ON WOLVES WILL TELL YOU 99% OFF THE TIME ONLY THE ALPHA PAIR WILL BREED,ANY LOWER FEMALES THAT COME INTO HEAT WILL SOME-TIMES SLIP OFF AND BREED WITH A NON RELATED MALE AND MAY GO ON TO START A NEW PACK../ETC/ETC/.....GO FIGURE..:confused:
     
  19. culabula

    culabula Big Dog

    if you breed a lot of dogs ,some of them are bound to be good,the guy feeding 600 greyhounds is more likely to win the derby than a guy feeding 2 or 3..In any given mating there are more than 58 billion different possible combinations of chromosomes(39 to the power of itself).Also during meiosis/fertilisation genes can get shuffled between pairs of chromosomes-giving even more possible combinations..The x chromosome of which dogs have 1 and bitches 2 is much bigger than the others and carries many more genes ,many related to blood and muscle function..
     
  20. BLUE8BULL

    BLUE8BULL CH Dog

    What happened ks..........did some-body throw their rattle out off the pram....boo-hoo.....any-way getting back to genetic's...
     

Share This Page