the apbt as an ancestor

alright ive been had this question on my mind for a long time, so now that im a member here id like to ask the community..

it seems to me that our very own apbt as maligned and hated on as he is, my be the ancestor to more modern day breeds than any dog living.

isnt it funny that a lot of people who choose to keep other breeds, but talk bad about our breed of choice, seem to really envy our dogs proven track record of courage, athleticism, stable temperament with people and willingness to work at many tasks?

so my question is this.. How many dog breeds today can claim the apbt as a progenitor?

these are some breeds that i have either heard or read about that have been bred from our dogs:
american bulldog
amstaff
boston terr
canary dog
plott hound
tosa-inu
olde bulldog
bandog
chessie retrever
dutch shepherd
argentine dogo
aussie hog dog
donovan pinscher

so what other breeds descend from ours? and why do you think so many people today hate on the apbt but when a new breed gets created they cross our dogs in?

 

You really need to check that list again. Most of those breeds have very long, very recorded, very recognized, very non-pitbull inclusive histories. Sorry.

 

aussie hog dog wtf!!?? lol :rolleyes:

AST and some Bandog types sure, painter AB has pit proven, even that little boston terrier started from pit dogs.

 

thanks for the responses. high coast i will go back and do some more research and check that list.this was something that i have been curious about for a long time kinda just an opened ended question i guessas far as the aussie hog dog i dont even know if it is a breed or not but i specifically remember reading on a blog (bandog blog or something like that) that they had a breed that they created down there for hog hunting and they crossed apbt in to give the instinct to catch.i do realize that breed histories can be somewhat subjective but i was under the impression that most of our modern day breeds were relatively new creations (last 100 years or so) and before that dogs were just generics types so to speek and bred for jobs ie. catch, running fast, scent hunting ect. also i tend to think when i read that bull terrier or bulldog being used as a component in a breeds creation their probably talking about the apbt of today because i personally believe apbt has been bred for work for so long, and that the performace bloodlines today represent years of selective breeding. i am by no means an expert, but does this sound like a flawed logic?

 

Many of those breeds have a touch of apbt blood but non with the exception of some american bulldog and certain bandog lines have substantial apbt blood.Take the dogo argintino for instance,that breed has many old world breeds that are now extinct[cordoba fighting dog for instance] that many may consider similar versions of the apbt but not the actual breed,bulldogs for sure but not apbt bulldogs.

 

so i went back and research that list a little bit..

sorry about the aussie hog dog thing Rebs just forgot the name of that dog i was reading about called BullArabs? from what i could gather theve been breedin em since about 1980 for performance (catch and bay dogs) and their still being crossed right now.

as far as the rest of my list HighCoast nothing there has a "very long , very recorded, very non pit bull history" as you suggested :rolleyes: but heres a little of what i came up with..

american bulldog- dates to around 1970's, name changed from american pit bulldog in the 1980's and theyre still being crossed to apbt right now

amstaff-1930's direct descendent of apbt, what i found interesting about these dogs is that the AKC would only accept them if the owner provided a 3 gen ped proving they were UKC/ADBA reg APBT's!

boston terr-1870's first called round head bull terriers or american bull terriers, a club was formed to represent the breed in 1889 (American Bull Terrier Club). interesting note here is George Armitage in his book said the first match he ever seen was between apbt and a dog that was half boston( and the half boston won!)

canary dog-1970's (still being created) named after an extinct dog from the canary islands. theyve crossed in apbt, ast, sbt and ab along with other stuff to get these dogs, but how much "pit bull" blood is that?

Plott hound-1780's (that is pretty old) bred by German imigrants to North Carolina Johan and Henry Plott and said to be the grittyest big game hunting hound. the Plotts were said to only outcross their family of hounds to dogs that would improve the "gameness" and "fighting ability" of their hounds (now i wonder what breed found in america would give these qualities?.. maybe the same breed that hunter today cross out to when they want to add these qualities APBT!) oh yea and unlike most other hunting hounds (excluding curs) a very typical color for plotts is brindle

Tosa-inu-1870's after the politics of isolation ended in Japan (Meji era) the japans began crossing their native Kochi to create their own combat dog. while different mastiff were used to increase the size of the Kochi dog the main ingredient use by the japanise to improve fighting ability was the so called "beikoku no Tokien" or "american fighting dog". the practice of crossing tosa to apbt continues to this day.

obviouly i cant cover all the dogs from the list that have apbt blood in this post but as far as the "very long, very recorded, very non pit bull histories" of these breeds that HighCoast and his flunky Mike C. suggested..sorry you need to check that list again.

 

The amstaff has no other blood than apbt blood, or at least should not have after what I know. (that does´nt mean it´s the same dog/breed it´s not, UKC


I´ve never heard there are any apbt blood in pure tosa inu, but I´m no expert so... I do think however there have been japanese tosas (fighting dogs) in japan before the japanese came in contact with pitbull terriers.

I don´t think anyone really knows for sure about American Bulldogs, APBT´s relationship. It is a rather intense debate on the subject from time to time; which came first, is the pitbull terrier the original Bulldog or the other way around.

It is much talk about this breed is crossed with this breed and they originate from this and that. Mixes are not unusual, but are these dogs considered anything else than crosses? An american bulldog crossed with APBT don´t make American Bulldogs, or? I don´t think so. But it certainly don´t make any APBT´s.

 

Tosa's were not created from APBT. There is old bulldog blood in them, but not APBT.

To create the Tosa they crossbred the Shikoku ken with Bulldogs (1872), Mastiffs (1874). German Pointers (1876), Great Danes (1924), Bull Terriers and St. Bernards.

 

thanks for the responses. Adivina ive think ive seen that chart before too, cant remember where though.

k pbs i never said that crossing apbt to ab would make apbt, come on now!

the original question in my first post is what dog breeds have apbt contributed genes to.

the Tosa that we see in the US today (you know the big 150lb red ones black mask) running around the UKC show ring, are no more real representative of a true Japanese Tosa than those super bully 19inch 85lb. "apbt's" in the ring across from them are real representatives of our dogs. the true tosa just like apbt is bred for performance not paint!

 

Pardon me, for not getting back to this thread. Hunting season officially opened Monday morning, and I've been basically up to my ass in muck and mosquitos for much of the week before then getting ready.

First thing. I may be incorrect, but I believe a proginator of a breed would be a direct ancestral form of a breed, or a vital contributor. As in, the APBT is the proginator of the American Staffordshire Terrier. Or, the APBT is an important proginator the American Bulldog.

As for Presa Canarios; I'm not sure how many posters from Spain there are here, but I'm sure that those who have met both real APBT and real Presas will agree that (1) although the Presa Canario os considered a "recreation" of an extinct breed, it would be more accurate to describe the modern breed as a combination of the few native Presa type dogs that existed, with appropriate mastiff and other blood thrown in to get as many dogs that were as close to what there was as possible. (2) Most of the dogs pedigreed as Presa Canarios in the US (and increasingly in Spain) don't look or act a whole lot like real Presas. Just because you can do the right ear crop on an oversized AmStaff mix, does not make a dog a Presa Canario, or a Pit Bull its "progenitor".

Olde Bulldogs, etc. Pit Bull, Bulldog, Mastiff, AB, kitchen sink with the right name and advertising. No question about that.

Bandogs. Maybe I'm behind the times, but the last time I checked, in certain circles "Bandog" was the cool name given to Pit Bull x Mastiff Crosses. I didn't know that Bandogs had become a true breed instead of an F1 cross. Pardon, and please educate me if I'm wrong.

Dutch Shepherds. Know 'em. Seen 'em. Like 'em. Dealt with 'em. But before I get all long-winded, just a question. How many of you out there would come from the Netherlands, and choose an APBT as the foundation, progenital breed for a totally trustworthy sheep guard/sheep herding dog, when there are so many established and effective sheep herding breeds all around you all over Europe?

Tosas....all that really needs to be said is that every "Bull Terrier" is not an American Pit Bull Terrier.

Chesepeak Bay Retrievers. They're links all around explaining how they came about.

Plotts. Just because "modern" breeders may choose to throw in whatever they wish into a breed in order to get a few short term working crosses does not make the crossed in dogs "progenitors" of a breed.

Argentine Dogos. PACK HUNTERS based on Cordoba fighting dogs, if I remember correctly. Again, all Bull Terriers are not American Pit Bull Terriers, and when you find those great big Pit Bull Packs,...you let me know.

As for calling folks flunkies and slinging and porch-sniping cur-dog insults when someone simply asks that you consider and research your own questions more thoroughly before spreading misinformation based on two websites and a few wild guesses,...anytime you feel like bringing facts to the table instead of juevenile BS, you let me know. Until then, I hope this helps.

 

I actually agreed with you, presas are made from native Presa type dogs, and a lot of breeders do considered Presas Canario like a new breed because the truth is that has nothing to do with the old native presa type dog.
I don´t know what Goldtone does mean with APBT, if your trying to mean the old pitbull or old bulldog (that actually did look a lot like the APBT), that´s right the blood of this dogs is in a lot of diferent breeds in the present time. If you mean the actual APBT It can´t be in some cases that you named.

 

Gamebull i agree with what youre saying here, but would you agree that today's gamebre apbt is the purest descendent (purest here meaning being selected for the desired qualities ie.gameness, the longest) of the bull and terrier family dogs?

and to HighCoast hello again and happy hunting (hunting season dont stop around here homie :cool i was hoping you could shares some "facts" about those "very long , very recorded very old" breed histories you were talking about lol.!
and yea i did make a mistake refering to the bandog as a "breed", my bad, but it is a name that people easily associate with apbt/moloss crosses, but definately not a breed, you are right..
if you know people with Duchies and theyve had em for a while then they should be able to tell you theyve crossed apbt in there as recently as the 90's! but then again ive never met any one breeding them for sheepherding lol! (have seen some used in ring/sport/detection though very hard working dogs).
as far as that porch spiper cur dog business you talking'bout dont get me confused with your daddy, because i am NOT that guy, trust me.

 

Gameness is the reason of why an APBT is an APBT, not all dogs have gameness, but it is the point about breeding APBT because without that why would have Amstaffs. So I don´t actually agree with that, because after all the years selecting APBT they should be the purest gamebreed and not the old bull and terrier that were just the beginning, APBT is the result, but I know what your trying to say.

 

there is a substantial amount of apbt in many lines of American bulldog[Hines,painter margintina],thats a fact,Ive talked to a few breeders,it isn't a secret.
as for the bandog,it is a type,not a breed although some breed true to type.
Not a fancy name for a apbtxmastiff,the term has been around since Shakespearian times.
Keith

 

Know something, GoldTone, from what you've put out so far it is plain to see what you're about. On top of not doing even the most basic research into your own question, or even understanding what you're really asking, your thing seems to be trying to cover up the basic ignorance with grade-school name calling. Have at it. Go right ahead. I graduated a long time ago, and I have only so much time for senseless stupidity in any given month. You've personally over-filled my quota, and it's only the nineth. Congratulations.

 

HighCoast im gonna say this and leave this thread along cause its off track now..

YOU were the first one to respond to my post and you did not even attempt to answer the original question, which i thought was pretty simple: "what breeds did the apbt contribute genes to"

then you responded with some bs about "very old, very recorded breed histories and what not.
when asked to explain which breeds were 'very old' (again simple question) you tell me how ignorant i am, lacked research and then called me a cur!

now to my way of thinking thats probably the worst thing you could call someone, but hey im in a internet chatboard what can i do..
i GUARANTEE you would never say anything like that to my face.

you ever been to a dog show and a guy called another guy (or his dog) a cur? fisticuffs (or worse) are sure to follow then the host tells every one get out. thats when the "hunter" becomes the hunted, if you know what i mean :cool: . good day sir - Tone.

 

Sounds as if your accustomed to hanging with immature hood rats.
A real Man has confidence in his self as well as his animals,public forum keyboard kung-fu has always been
for the pups that know no better.

Posting hostile physical violence innuendos on a public forum ?
WTF? were you always picked last for kickball ?
Someone break your cookies and spit in your kool-aid?

Just because a guy flipped on you and your question doesn't justify acting like a cyber tuff guy and a tail gate dropper. If you ever want flowers to the real dance you can NOT act in such a manner.

People with this "cur"attitude are what has caused the majority of the negitive Press against our breed.

Know What I mean ? :rolleyes:

 

May I offer a word of advice? Trying to revise history when the history is so very short and so very plain makes one appear dishonest as well as dumb.

Perhaps, I made a mistake by not taking the time to spell out how seriously silly the idea that boston terriers, canary dogs,
plott hounds, tosa-inus, chessapeak bay retrievers, dutch shepherds and argentine dogos "descend from ours," the "maligned and hated" apbt (your words) was.

Amstaffs descended from APBTs. Dutch Shepherds clearly did not.
Just because there are "performance only purists" out there who will use Pit Bulls to put tenacity and drive into their working crosses does not mean that the other breed in the cross "descended" from Pit Bulls. As I said, you failed to fully understand, define and research your own question, then you started calling people lackeys and what not.

Have Amstaffs and Pit Bulls been used to create American Bulldogs, other "bulldog recreations", hog dogs, American lines of Presa Canarios, extremely new "performance breeds" that don't even quite breed true yet, etc.? Without a doubt.

The fact remains that your question was flawed, and so was your attitude. I took your question seriously and answered respectfully with the time I had at hand. You subsequently proved that neither you nor your question were worth the courtesy.

As for the shoot from the lip shot callin'; seriously, how old are you?

 

I have read in more than one place that Boston Terriers are descended from APBT's. As for the rest of those you mentioned, the only one I have ever heard of being created with APBT blood is the Dogo. I did lol @ the Chessapeak Bay retriever and Dutch Shepherd though...

 

Clearly, old type rat pit/dog pit Bostons and APBT could share a common game pit anscestor here or there. That, however, is not quite the same thing as Bostons being descended from APBT, as is the case with AmStaffs. I know what you mean, and have probably heard many of the same things. However, deeply involved Boston folks are quick to tell you that any histories and similarities were tenous and diverged long ago-and they're quick to pull out the papers prove it too.

Dogos are a trickier story. As far as my limited understanding of the breed goes, the Martinez brothers were not fans of fighting bulldogs and tended to see dogs who fought or were aggressive towards other dogs as having lower instincts, less notble qualities, etc. Remember, they were developing a white, trustworthy, pack hunting, free ranging type dog. Did people use APBT them, I am sure someone did somewhere did, but, by the 1920s/1930s, everyone knew what an APBT was all about, and they just didn't really fit in with the afore mentioned goals of Dogo breeders. Much more likely is the white bull terrier. Surely, they too would scrap when called on, but, by this time in their history, white Bull terriers really had to be called on to get that particular job done. As a lot of Bull Terrier folks will tell you, they're willing to finish a fight but not start one. Pit Bulls, well, you know that many don't give a damn who starts or finishes, as long as there is one to be had (I know, I know, some anti-Pit Bull person could take that out of context, but the truth is the truth.) But still, having a few individuals here or there doesn't make them "progenitors" of the Dogo breed in the commonly understood sense, not in my opinion, at least.