Clouse Dogs

Mike, if you are so sure of yourself, take the bet..I like your attempt to be so respectful in this forum but your mannerism on other forums is much more immature and cowardly, thus knowing I.M. wouldn't be allowed to respond.Yes, you did use his name and called him a lair, I'm just asking you now to put your money where mouth is.You want proof if I knew him. Again and again I have told you where to check, Clyde's wife, David Adams, Bob Larget's wife, ect.Letters, photos? I not a groupie. No letters because I wasn't buying. When I wanted to talk to Bert, I called him. These weren't the dark ages, the telephone had been invented!Now for dates, I.M. doesn't use old information of other's letters, he goes from memory off the top of his head, same as Bert. Actuaries can sometimes be wrong for both I.M. and Bert on dates. Fact is, he did fight to a draw. You don't have the information you think you do. It was published.Since you don't know about the draw then how can you call someone a lair about dates? Take the bet Mike or don't be a coward & call people lairs on other forums.BTW you did use his full name, first and last.

 

knightmare do you really expect that this i bet you $500 that im right is really gonna happen , i mean instead of talking like a schoolboy in the playground , just post the article you have , the fact is mallard has poseted his proof that he has , now dont wait for him to say yea i take your bet , cos you know its ridiculous to expect anyone to do that on a forum, and then you can use that as an excuse to not post your proof , just post it ,maybe your right , maybe your not ,but the one way to find out is to post it so we can all see it ,i mean if it was me i would just post it and say see he fight to a draw ,not act like some kid in the playground .

 

The only thing I am sure of is what Mr. Clouse wrote. I approach my correspondence on this forum as I do on others websites. I let reason and facts dictate my responses. Because I don’t huff and puff or act the way a schoolyard bully does, you take that as cowardice. I guess your world is different than mine, which is OK because I don’t have an ego to bruise. Like I eluded to before, your tactics are to dance around the subject instead of simply putting up the proof. There’s no cowardice here but in front of everyone on this site, you are cowering behind a bet. You are attempting to make a wager a sticking point, so that you do not have to back up your facts. In my opinion, that is being a coward. I don’t need to check with anyone to prove your story. That’s your job because you are the one who made the incorrect statement. Unless you present proof, we have to go with what we have in front of us and what we have is Bert’s articles, made at the time of the events. I don’t have my own information, I published Bert’s information. So you can make your bets, arm wrestling challenges, take my lunch money, cage fight or hit me with a shovel, I’m just waiting for the following:

C2K/Knightmare
Kindly present any historical information you have about Clouse’s Butcher Boy fighting to a draw.

C2K/Knightmare/ I.M.
Present any historical information you have, proving that you personally knew Bert Clouse (pictures together, letters addressed to you (no photo-shopping), phone records, etc.

 

Hey ,at least Mallard is straight forward and don"t beat around the bush.

 

glMike, there is no bullying. You always cop to saying this behavior when you are put on the spot. You are so sure of yourself. I remember when you put up information about Maud as being bred by Wilder and had to be corrected and proof was shown you to be wrong on that statement by UKC. Many times proof was shown. Who showed the proof with Hemphill ads in the Gazette from "Pit Dogs the way we like them"? As for Bert, as I stated, you met him once and you have no proof of you personally knowing him, as I have stated, and you have no proof to show other wise. You aren't an expert on any true dogman including Bert. Not once have you ever showed where you personally known anyone, including Wilder. The Library has many letters in it but the subject matter isn't of the nature to be shared with the public because of whom it was wrote to and who sent it, some are still alive and active. Now if you want me to go through the Library and do a vast amount of research just to show you are wrong that Ch. Butcher Boy was matched to a draw then I want to be paid for the work. I'm not doing a bunch of leg work for book worms like yourself, for your personal collection at my expense as I have done before for you (as in giving you UKC#). Now lets stick to the subject. You called I.M. a "Lair", now put your money where your mouth is and back up the statement and take the bet!!! "Scared man can't gamble, jealous man can't work." I might have done it for free but after reading the thread and what you had to say, I felt it was time to get into those shallow pockets of yours at least once by legal means. What is truly funny is the best you can do to discredit I.M.'s information are about dates. Hell he thinks when he pulled Ch. Iron Bear it was yesterday for him. Unlike him, you never live those times as a dogman. Just last night at dinner Ironman brought up a subject and thought it was in the 60's when it was the late 60's early 70's. Maybe because he is in his 60's he recalls those years better. lol Mike this now gotten childish and petty. If you want the information I have then you will pay. When it comes to you, all I have is hard d..k and bubble gum and I fresh out of bubble gum! When comes to you nothing will be cheap information including quality of a dog to see pull or hunt. I will make this clear for the last time. You never saw Ch. Butcher Boy, Bert's yard of dogs, been to his home, (like another moderator on this board has too),. The best you can do is scan letters from real dog owners from that era. If you want the information of mine you will pay when you call family members lairs. I bet you are wondering how I can be so sure? I have many pictures of Ch. Butcher Boy and won't share them. I have many of the pictures which hung above Joe Corvino desk. I have the original picture of Ch. Billy Sunday with Harry Clark's handwriting of his matches on the picture. I have the original picture of Galvin's Pup. So how do I remember the match to a draw? Because as some one who owned a great grandson of Ch. Butcher Boy I was surprised when I obtain this information. Kind of disappointed because I too thought he won all his matches. BTW the reason why I call you a coward, you hide behind the handle as Herb when I.M. used his known handle. You did not even use the handle Mallard which a few knows you by. Another reason is because you made the statement in a hidden forum where you thought he couldn't see it and you think he can't respond. He knows if he exposes the method of accessing the board it will be moderated. Take the bet Mike.:dogstare:

 

If anyone has ever gotten banned from a board... all they have to do is create a different username and they will get access to that board! That's all! It doesn't take some genius hacker to get access! We all know there are spies or bogus alias' that never contribute in any discussion but are on just lerking so that they can read all the shit that people talk about them!

 

You are a very poor tactician and weak minded thinker. Your attempts to reverse the situation is your normal behavior for dodging issues once you are pinned. The only people on the spot are those who published incorrect information and can’t stomach that fact they were called on it. Haphazardly, a statement was made about Clouse’s Butcher Boy being matched in the 60’s without checking any facts first (still no retraction).

Concerning dog history, I never said I was any kind of an expert; however, you keep singing that same song! Why are you so afraid that people are not going to think you are a credible information source concerning the dogs? I think the reason why is because you need to feel like you are the only source of information so that you can remain relevant but the fact is, you often report the wrong facts. Like I said before, when it comes to dogs, I’m just a pea in a pod. I don’t claim to be a fast lane enthusiast but you are so worried that others will see me that way, you spend most of your time trying to discredit anybody else’s efforts. Then you huff and puff when someone sticks to their guns.

Your excuse for getting it wrong is always, “Oh I just went with what was off the top of my head”.
You know as well as I do that within this hobby, there is always a rotation of people getting out and new people getting in; therefore, it is important to get historical facts straight so that the newer crowd has accurate information. If you don’t want to be called to the carpet on getting it wrong, get it right. If you find that your, “off the top of my head” thinking often fails you, accept that you are not as sharp as you hoped you would be at your age and check your facts before giving out information. Just take the time to get it right! It’s that simple. If you don’t and someone corrects you, double your dose and relax.

You believe someone needs to be an expert before they can speak on a subject?
People learn various ways. First-hand exposure, reading, what was told or taught to them, etc.
I didn’t need to take part in the civil war before I had the right to speak about General Grant or Abraham Lincoln. By your thinking, if I wasn’t shooting guns in that war, I cannot resolutely speak about Lincoln’s birth-date, even though I have his original birth certificate. That’s just nuts. Whatever you read about a particular dog in a 1925 Bloodlines Journal, was also learned by the next person who read the same article. After reading the article, the other person knows as much about that dog as you, which is why it bugs the crap out of you when I freely publish historical information.

Again, I think all this points to where you need to feel like you are the only one who should be heard and you react poorly if someone else shares what you feel is your vested right to the spotlight. It was once told to me by someone very close to you that as you are getting older, you realize that despite how long you have been involved, that people don’t see you as a prominent person in the history of this breed. They said you didn’t age like a fine wine and that it bothers you, knowing your name will never be associated with such greats as Tudor, Clouse, Hemphill, etc. Listen, whether or not you are relevant in this day and age, has nothing to do with me. Your good or bad puppy sales has nothing to do with me. The success or failure of your registry has nothing to do with me. The accuracy or inaccuracy of your Hemphill pedigrees has nothing to do with me. Whether any credible registry will or won’t have anything to do with you has nothing to do with me. If anything is or is not working for you, it’s due to the credibility you have earned or lost by your own behaviors and dealings with people.

This was yet another opportunity you had to be real. You just could have said, “Oh crap, I remembered it wrong”. Nobody remembers everything right all the time. Instead, you had to get all wrangled up. Nice legacy after 41 years! I re-read that other post very carefully. I also write very carefully. It’s one thing to call somebody a liar and it’s another thing to reference where somebody else calls a person a liar. I think you need to re-read the other post.

So it ends the way it always ends. I post historical documents, proving the other side is wrong, while they gnash their teeth, hyperventilate and try to make a childish challenge. Then they talk about who they know and what they own. I usually stay with this stuff just long enough bait these idiots into revealing their nut-less selves but there’s nothing else I can add if they don’t actually produce any facts. They need the back and forth banter just to remain on the boards, so I guess we served each other’s purpose in a way. If there's nothing to be learned, this just isn’t that entertaining to me.

I live in your head. Cheers!

 

gl The only tactician you pratice is one of plagiarism. You are an inept historian who creates an illusion of false premise in a vale attempt to elevate yourself as a educated person about the breed. When in truth you don't which end to clip the lead on.
This is it? The best you can do is read a book and attempt to pin some down about dates. The weak minded person is one which has to refresh their information from a book instead of trying to recall a very unimportant issue such as dates. If you like dates what year did Bert send Frank Creed Stabber and his brother?

You haphazardly posted all his matches were in 1950's and he was a 4xw only when he fought to a draw in one of his matches, now who is on the spot? How do you like being pinned. No one cowardly hide under a handle and called you a lair! Oh BTW, I.M. never posted on that board that was Heavy in the picture, again the simple minded cry baby haters try to pass blame.What you fail to understand is the information was obtain from show news not from a letter by Bert which also could be in error. Dates aren't that important, information is as you did time and time again about Hemphill dogs like Maud. Or one better the lie you wrote in email in attempt to have claimed to talk to Joey, would you like me to post the email? You stated you had talked to him when you never did. You claimed to talk to Ironman and never did. You claimed you paid UKC for research on Hemphill dogs breeding and you never did. Now who is a lair? In since you want to make posts about Ike off Maud, I will share the email. Then we see you gives out the wrong information! So much the Rusty story you told everyone.

Yes people do get in and out of dogs this is why it is important people don't listen to people like yourself who was in dogs less time then when you got out for decades! You try to add more time in dogs then you were to the point of when you enter into the breed. I'm not worried how people see you as long as they see the truth. As for show news you can't even post the complete information. You call some one a lair because of dates from a letter you have. Put your money where your mouth is and you will be shown you don't have all the information about Ch. Butcher Boy. I saw on your site a picture which you tried to claim it was Ch. Butcher Boy before a show. The sad part is, you can clearly see the dog in the picture isn't a light (yellow) red nose dog! Talk about misinformation!

Double dose for an off the comment statement? You are unable to find the information about the draw. You are the one who has taken to many shots to the head. BTW did you get your wife's permission before you made these posts? What's matter Mike don't have the $500. like when you were whining on the phone to Danger of not having any money and his wife went out her way not once but twice to get you a job which you could obtain at a simple grocery store food chain!
What is all this rambling about who will or won't except registration? Who is barred? I.M. isn't from any in the world. Oh that is right, like your false claim of him being banned from so many boards.:rolleyes: BTW Mike if there are inaccuracies of the Hemphill dogs pedigree then why did you want to buy Danger and was turn down? As Diva posted on the thread, "you have yet prove they are any." Quincy (DaDude) has been crying the same lame tune until he was shown from ADBA of BP hanging papers of which he owned dogs from.

So you are going to live by Bert's letter? What are you going to do if you end up dieing by that letter where one of those wins turns out to the reported draw?

So you think you live in my head? At least now you have a place! :lol:
No Mike I owned you and this is why you made your post in that forum.

Everyone thinks you are straight up. Now I will show where you lied.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: joe t
To: ironlinekennels@ironlinekennels.com
Sent: Saturday, May 011, 2009 12:50 PM

Mike, just saved e-mail till i spoke with Dan, did not reply.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ironline Kennels
To: joe t
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: Dogs


Joe,
did you respond to any of his email requests?
If so could you forward those as well.

Thanks,
Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: joe t
To: ironlinekennels@ironlinekennels.com
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 8:59 AM
Subject: Fw: Dogs



----- Original Message -----
From: <scratchline54@aol.com>
To: <joe@>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:07 PM
Subject: Fwd: Dogs


Mr. Thompsett,

Hope I have not bothered you by having such a strong interest in your
Ike dog.
The Hemphill/Creed cross that Ike represents is important to me because
I have littermates to Ike in the pedigree of my dog.

If you would be so kind, perhaps you can share a picture or two of Ike?

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: scratchline54@aol.com
To: joe
Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 11:16 am
Subject: Dogs


Mr. Thompsett,

I'm the fellow who called a few minutes go about the dogs.
Thanks for taking a moment with me.

My brother is an avid Harley fan and has a few very old bikes.

If you would be so kind, I had just another question or two about the
dog you owned and then won't trouble you any further.
You told me that Ike sired by Spike and out of Maude. Maude has the
pure Hemphill bitch.
When did Ike pass away? What color was he?

I recall you saying that Ike was your house dog and never fought but
that Dan bred to him a few times.
Did you ever see what colors the pups looked like?

Mike

​

 

gl I need to edit this:
"and his wife went out her way not once but twice to get you a job which you could obtain at a simple grocery store food chain!"

and went out of her way not once but twice to get a job which you couldn't obtain

 

gl Why so their full name can be placed on the forum? So they can get ban when they respond to them in the same manner? Why haven't you deleted the thread? Are you going to make me do it? If I have to go that far to write a script, might as well go all the way!:mad:

It is a waste of time in that forum anyway. Nothing to learn. BTW none of your suggestions was the method I used. You know by phone the chat was entered and you don't know how or when. In admin it shows who's account is lurking and their ISP#. Mine you couldn't.:cool:

When someone tries to apply you use the forum's admin to trace and then deny the account app.

 

You haphazardly posted all his matches were in 1950's and he was a 4xw only when he fought to a draw in one of his matches, now who is on the spot?
**Not me, I posted the truth. We’re still waiting for you to belly up! You only come back with words. Provide your proof so that all can see you are a man of your word (without a finder’s fee).

Or one better the lie you wrote in email in attempt to have claimed to talk to Joey, would you like me to post the email?
**You mean the one you posted where I wrote, “I'm the fellow who called a few minutes go about the dogs. Thanks for taking a moment with me”. The e-mail that states we just spoke, so you just contradicted yourself. As you wrote in earlier posts within this thread, you say, "go talk to this guy", "go talk to that guy", in order to verify your stories. In the case of the Harley Mechanic, you gave me the green light to verify the breeding to Maud, so I did. You later got bent because I found out that you bred the untested house dog Ike three times. Interesting those breedings don't appear anywhere.
A little bird told me that the untested house dog Ike was actually your Duster dog, which is why your near pure Hemphill dogs are producing brindles. Go figure.

You stated you had talked to him when you never did.
**Yes, I did. I did at your invitation. Here are some excerpts from the e-mail you sent me, after you were pissed off that talked to Joe. Mind you, this was after you told me to contact him and verify the story:

Re: Dogs

Ironline Kennels to you, joe, Julius Ammons - May 9 2009More Details
From:
Ironline Kennels
Add to: To Do, Calendar

Mike,
As you see from the header I sent this response to everyone who is needed to be involved.

First I would like to apologize to our long time family friend Joe for him having to be involved in something that happened 31 years ago.

Mike, as Joe stated to you, Ike was given to him and was his house pet so if we ever needed to breed to him we knew where he was at.

To:

Date:
Sat, May 9, 2009 8:18 am

I18N YGP.SaveAll I18N YGP.SaveProgress I18N YGP.ViewAfterSave

OK, so why would you write, “As Joe stated to you”, if he never talked to me?

Then, when you learn that people are on the trail of finding out about Duster’s breedings, you write this…

You are to break off all contact and inquiries.
You are requested to not to try to circumvent your future searches for information by this manner in the future.

For everybody out there, when I.M. says, talk to this person’s wife or this fellow in order to verify his stories, the above is what you get if you actually do it.

You claimed to talk to Ironman and never did.
**That’s a lie. I don’t know who Ironman is, outside of the Marvel comic book dude.
This is your attempt to invalidate what I was told by attaching nonsense to it.

You claimed you paid UKC for research on Hemphill dogs breeding and you never did.
**I guess you haven’t seen the published UKC research that’s going around?

Now who is a lair?
**Not me brother. I’m squeaky clean.

So much the Rusty story you told everyone.
**The only Rusty I know is some retarded kid down the street. Seriously, who’s Rusty?

this is why it is important people don't listen to people like yourself who was in dogs less time then when you got out for decades!
**Ahhh. Here we go. The Bert Clouse article doesn’t count because according to you I don’t have enough big time dog experience? It’s Bert’s words. When you get backed in a corner, you sling mud and go personal, hoping that the other side will go away.

off the comment statement
**What is an off the comment statement? If you make a comment, it’s your word. If you make a statement, it’s your word. Is your word meaningful or not, depending on how focused you are?

You are unable to find the information about the draw.
**There was no draw. The articles I published within this thread (written by Bert), show that he was matched 4 times. His fourth was not a draw, as I also published the match report. The last article has butch at 9 years old, listed as 4 x winner. Not a 4 x winner + 1 draw. If you had it, you would have produced it by now. You are using this as an opportunity to keep the thread going so you can trash talk.

You are the one who has taken to many shots to the head.
**Hell, at least I fought. At least I proved my personal gameness more than someone like you could in a dozen lifetimes. At least I enjoyed the camaraderie of true-hearted fighting men whose words could be trusted.

BTW did you get your wife's permission before you made these posts?
No, I guess when you tell on me I’m in the doghouse again.

What's matter Mike don't have the $500.
**Yah, I got $500.00. Remember the $1,000.00 I scanned from your last challenge?
I only bet when I play blackjack and that’s with honorable people.
After all of this, to clear your name you certainly would have produced any information if you had it. Remember, I didn’t get on-line and say, “You were wrong about your statement and I have info from Bert to prove it but you have to come up with $500.00 before I show you anything”. No. I freely posted the information. The others who have chimed in see this for what it is. Post your proof or retract your statement. C’mon now!

if there are inaccuracies of the Hemphill dogs pedigree then why did you want to buy Danger and was turn down?
**That’s a good question. I have always been a fan of Hemphill dogs.
Like many others, I was excited to see such a high percentage of Hemphill blood still available back when Danger was for sale. I thought the Danger dog would be a good representative of that family line. This was long before Gino and others began to share the truth about the triple Duster dogs. I didn’t know about the inaccuracies until later. Besides, on the other site, you admitted the dogs you sold to Gino were not bred as papered.

When relationships go bad with I.M (as most often happens), it’s always everybody’s fault but I.M’s. Once the friendship is severed, I.M. becomes a pouty gossip queen. He takes truths and turns them into half truths or situations in an effort to either hurt the reputation of someone or to embarrass them into going away. For example, when you have small yard space and are considering an additional dog, most will talk it over with their wives before bringing in the animal out of courtesy to their partner. It’s the right thing to do (at least that’s how I operate). But I.M’s version is I needed permission from my wife, because I am a weak, hen-pecked boo boo.

At the time, I told I.M. I was getting a $1,500.00 loan for the Danger dog, which I did.
As far as I see it, getting a loan demonstrated a pretty high level of interest and dedication to the animal. In I.M’s world, getting a loan means I’m poor (I guess) because he tells everyone that I had to get a loan for the dog, as if it was a bad thing.

When I called I.M. and said I had the money for Danger, he had already sold the dog.
I asked him why he sold the dog when he already knew I was going through the hassle of getting a loan and he said the other guy came up with the money first. I.M’s version is that I was rejected as a possible buyer. If so, why didn’t he tell me to hold off from the loan? These kinds of reactions are not new to anyone who has been on message boards or been around I.M. long enough. Once I.M. knew I did not need his approval or accept his stories, he began to post personal things and twist them to his benefit. That’s how he rolls. That’s what you see in front of you.

So you are going to live by Bert's letter?
**Yeah. Those are Bert’s words.

What are you going to do if you end up dieing by that letter where one of those wins turns out to the reported draw?
**The honorable thing. I’ll will admit I was wrong and thank you for providing an accurate record. That won’t happen though as when you finally go through your magazines and read your article, you will find that you have repeated your haphazard pattern of speaking before you got your facts straight.

What are you going to do if you end up dying by that article when the wins are as Bert reported and you were incorrect about reporting a draw?

Everyone thinks you are straight up.
**Herein lies the real problem. Because you think people see me as a straight up person, you can’t stand it because you know people think of you an idiot. This is not a “union” generation that thinks you have seniority or are untouchable, simply because you have been around longer.

As for the rest, it is more of your attempt to bring up things of a personal nature. This further demonstrates the kind of person you are. That’s how you scratch? Like I said earlier, whether or not you are relevant in this day and age, has nothing to do with me. Your good or bad puppy sales has nothing to do with me. The success or failure of your registry has nothing to do with me. The accuracy or inaccuracy of your Hemphill pedigrees has nothing to do with me. Whether any credible registry (ADBA/UKC) will or won’t have anything to do with you has nothing to do with me. If anything is or is not working for you, it’s due to the credibility you have earned or lost by your own behaviors and dealings with people.

 

Or one better the lie you wrote in email in attempt to have claimed to talk to Joey, would you like me to post the email?
**You mean the one you posted where I wrote, “I'm the fellow who called a few minutes go about the dogs. Thanks for taking a moment with me”. The e-mail that states we just spoke, so you just contradicted yourself. As you wrote in earlier posts within this thread, you say, "go talk to this guy", "go talk to that guy", in order to verify your stories. In the case of the Harley Mechanic, you gave me the green light to verify the breeding to Maud, so I did. You later got bent because I found out that you bred the untested house dog Ike three times. Interesting those breedings don't appear anywhere.
A little bird told me that the untested house dog Ike was actually your Duster dog, which is why your near pure Hemphill dogs are producing brindles. Go figure.

***Mallard I could care about the beef with you and I.M. but once again you are making speculations not absolute truth or facts.

Fisrt off Ike WASN'T the dog in question you called Joey about it was Sambo! Sambo was returned to I.M. as a four or five month old pup and died on I.M.'s yard. That untested dog was from a totally different breeding which was from a Red Devil breeding. The reason you don't see the dog you were talking about was because the dog didn't produce pups from the three times they tried to breed the dog which was the replacement dog for Sambo. How do I know?...this came directly from Ironman not the Tx Ironman...I heard it from his lips to my ears! This did not come from I.M.!

As far as the brindle dogs popping up all you have to do is point at Ch Iron Spike ROM and it's a known fact Mitzie the daughter of Geronimo was a brindle dog who also happens to be the dam of Spike. As the 1952 ad where Hemphill wrote where he produces brindles also, why the suprise? Like I told you in previous emails of the HANDFUL of pictures of Geronimo's offspring Mitzie was brindle. Mallard you are a smart guy and you have researched SOME of the history of OFRN dogs but you DON't KNOW in just the 170+ UKC registered offspring of Geronimo how many were brindle!

I do know this, in DOCUMENTED history in the GAZETTES from 20 years ago I.M. wrote where Duster was STILL ALIVE and Wlider's Satan was "supposed" to be a littermate.

BTW if that little bird wasn't D.S. or I.M. that little bird has no credibility. If it didn't come from the breeders mouth what weight does it hold?

if there are inaccuracies of the Hemphill dogs pedigree then why did you want to buy Danger and was turn down?
**That’s a good question. I have always been a fan of Hemphill dogs.
Like many others, I was excited to see such a high percentage of Hemphill blood still available back when Danger was for sale. I thought the Danger dog would be a good representative of that family line. This was long before Gino and others began to share the truth about the triple Duster dogs. I didn’t know about the inaccuracies until later. Besides, on the other site, you admitted the dogs you sold to Gino were not bred as papered.

****Mallard you know this about me...NOBODY in dogs knew Gino better than ME!...NOBODY! I had the "letter" emailed to me by Gino years before you saw a copy! NOWHERE in the letter was ABSOLUTE STATEMENTS made as to ALL the breedings...some were listed. Gino didn't put two and two together and realize there were MANY breedings not in that letter...i.e. Tiger's or Princess' litter they weren't the only dogs in their litters! There were many littermates and MANY REPEAT breedings just from those two breedings alone!

Gino was NEVER in the circle and had privy to ALOT of information! Once again those "others" that you talked about KNOWING about the 7/8th Duster dogs if it wasn't D.S. or I.M. it's not FACTUAL or ACCURATE!

Like I said earlier NOBODY knew Gino better than me. I knew about Gino's substance abuse, his choice of substance and his SEXUAL PREFERENCE!...Mallard the last you got to EXPERIENCE first hand! Gino and I discussed the pedigree of Danger in length and NOT ONCE during that lengthy conversation did he EVER mention Danger wasn't bred as said...as a matter of FACT for YEARS not one peep! It wasn't until he could no longer produce dogs and he and I.M. fell out was there any mention! Knowing Gino like I do and because of his sexual preference he reacted TYPICALLY!

Everything I posted is 100% FACT and TRUTH...no speculation form little birdies...only from the principles invlolved!

 

gl Mike Page, what is wrong with you.
You know good an well if I didn't have the information Ch. Butcher Boy fought to a draw then I wouldn't wanted to bet.
Will I give you information? NO!

Who told you where he worked?
You were told just to ask him if there was a dog he owned off that breeding.
You were given a lot information in the past and what did you do?
Call a man at his WORK PLACE and want to talk about dog fighting. J.T. told to go to email and ask what you wanted to know.
He also told you he won't say anything on the phone or before he talked to Dan.
You laid and used I.M., Ironman as references.
You laid and claimed you already talked to Ironman.
BTW Danger also got to hear what Ironman thought and what he wants to say to you in person but my gut feeling is, there won't be much to talk about.
You had to keep pressing on the phone about Ike aka Sambo, (BTW Mike you called UKC and they told you Ike was Sambo and who owned him, I.K.).
J.T. told you about his Rusty dog off Ch. Iron Bobcat and Apache, you had to ask him about his fighting career ON THE PHONE AT HIS WORK PLACE!
What did you think he was going to say? You are an idiot.
Research? LOL who lives minutes from UKC?
Do you think people don't have fast and easy access to their stud files?
BTW that is one reason why UKC never got the rest of the future breeding registered with them. They would freely give out names and addresses.
Since the so called "Letter" I notice nothing has been said about the rest of the dogs from Ike aka Sambo and Babe aka Jenny litters.
I guess the late Lyman K. didn't breed Nugget to Sambo and I guess he wasn't there at Cowboy Bob's place at the hog hunt?
Hell Lyman went to all the hog hunts. Hell even Boggs writes about Lyman in the column of "Beginnings with Boggs" in SDJ.
Do you think before the thread was posted on I.K. billboard a check wasn't done with UKC? You think there was a fee charged?
This is how I.M. knows you are a lair about paying for research!!!!!
Many know why this was the reason their registry wasn't used for the breeding done off Babe and Trudy.
When they were born in 1978 ADBA was taking off with in a couple of years.

Now you want to know why the email was sent to break off contact?
Because of the way you handled it by calling and asking about dog fighting at his work place.
He called Ironman about it. Danger heard what Ironman had to say about it.
J.T. also told you the pup was given back at about 3 months old.
Yes, he was given to Little Joey as a house pet for the kid, who Ironman is God Father too.
Rusty wasn't given as a house pet after Ike. Nor was he untested.
I won't list the many well know people who saw the quality of the dogs off Ch. Iron Bear and Ch. Iron Bobcat bred to Apache
like the late 2 Shoes or the breeders of Maurice POR off Daytona or the breeder of Ch. Lively or Jessie Boggs, to the owner of Ch. Gideon and the rest.
Why? like a inept idiot you would do the same to them as you did with J.T. at work.
Who are you? A no body and never will be.
You dare to knock the accomplishments of I.M.? LOL
Look at you fool! LOL
Look at the dogs he bred, fed & hunted.
I can't believe you think, you have the right to question the merit of any dogman who had the balls to dare to be n da [] & compare.

J.T. grow up with Ironman, known each other since they were kids, do you think J.T. was never around Ironman or the family when things went down?????
DO YOU REALLY THINK J.T. WAS GOING TO TELL YOU ANYTHING?
A PERSON JUST CALLS UP HIS WORK PLACE AND ASK IF HE EVER FOUGHT A DOG WHILE LIVING IN A STATE WHICH HAS BEEN FELONY SINCE 1977?
Did you think J.T. was that stupid? J.T. is an ex Avenger and Ironman was an ex Nomad for the Avengers. Both had rode as friends with the 81.

There is no truth in your post, you are a parrot at best and often you given the wrong information.
People send you stuff and like a fool you post it as factual. Now for the statement of I.M. claiming all Ch. Butcher Boy's matches were in 1960 or 60's?,
I believe it was in reference to dogs he produced and his most famous grand daughter was born in 1966. If you ever read Bloodlines Journal you will read in 1968 his neighbor owned her. For some one knowing when grand daughters were born and owning a son from her, he had years ago with the information on his website, why the possible mistake? You don't know because you were never around at those times.

BTW if you read Bloodlines you would also know that was the same year Irish Jerry first got into dogs!
Now you want dates, there is some for you.
Here is some information for you.
But will you get the information of where and when Ch. Butcher Boy went to a draw? NADA.
But I will give you a little more information,
read what Howard said about Bert in 1960 Your Friend and Mine about Baldly and rest of Bert dogs.
LMAO! Bert never said a word in return...

For a person who knows everything about everyone, now claims he doesn't know who Ironman is though you claimed to talk to him.
You claim you don't know the handle but you claim you been dogs all these years when you haven't.
You claim you are in the know of the dog game but yet when I post about Ironman you don't claim you know who he is...
You clearly outted yourself of not knowing diddly swat because there are letters in SDJ by him.
i.e. the one in response to Millmaker about Maurice.

LOL Mike as for the sport of prize fighting, records have been kept for years, you are a joke, no more then a punching bag. You couldn't lick your lips!
Now who trying appear as a tuff guy bullying?
Did you forget who their friends are? Ready to Rumble who beat Angel Manfredy and the Hitman, etc.?

Now for Gino, Mike you are a lair that anyone admitted the papers on Gino's or Danger isn't bred as said.
D.S. screwed with Gino's head because Gino is ass, you or no one else would ever post it because everyone knows it doesn't list all the breeding in the letter.
This why D.S. screwed with Gino because Gino made false claims about Danger's pedigree.
I.M. has posted to Quincy aka DeDude, about when and where he wanted to do DNA comparison.
Not one of you have the balls to find out the truth. Damn Mike does your broke ass even have the money to DNA profile besides compare?
All Gino got was a letter of possible list of dogs of which pups might be available but after the BS he wrote to J.K. @ SDJ was so F.U.,
JK called I.M. about Gino's BS.
This in turn pissed the whole family off. Gino was out and he knew it. Since then who all has he screwed with; V. Jackson, D. Mayfield, J.A., K.A., etc.
As CrazyHorse posted, everyone has become to know the truth about Gino but you live in denial because here is the truth about you and the dog Danger.
This is why you have a hard on now and calling people lairs over dates. Not saying they are mistaken but LAIRS!

YOU CALLED I.M. WANTING THE DOG. I.M. SPOKE A LONG WHILE WITH YOU ON THE DOG. YOU NEVER SAID A WORD OR HAD ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS BREEDING. WHEN IT CAME TIME TO HANG UP YOU SAID "LET ME ASK MY WIFE FIRST AND I WANT TO SEE IF I CAN GET A BANK LOAN TO BUY THE DOG (cost was only $1,500.)."
I.M. SAID TO YOU "WHY DIDN'T YOU GET YOU WIFE'S PERMISSION BEFORE YOU CALLED AND HOW YOU GOING TO AFFORD FEEDING THE DOG IF YOU HAVE NO MONEY TO BUY THE DOG?" YOU SAID "THE MONEY HAS BEEN TIGHT AND YOU DIDN'T WANT UPSET HER RIGHT NOW WHEN THERE WAS NO MONEY AVAILABLE."
BTW she still kicked your broke ass to the curb at one time or another. LMAO!

NOW GINO GOT MAD BECAUSE HE COULDN'T SELL THE LAST 2 SICKLY MALES OFF THE DAUGHTER/FATHER BREEDING FROM TIGER AND NO ONE WANTED THE FROZEN SEMEN BECAUSE OF THE RELEASE OF DANGER AND BEING A PROVEN DOG.

LETS ALL KNOW THE REAL TRUTH OF WHAT THE PROBLEM IS,
ALL OF YOU GOT X OUT OF HAVING THE CHOICE TO OBTAIN DANGER.
NOW YEARS LATER HE HAS PROVEN TO BE THE BEST OF THAT BLOODLINE IN PRODUCING.
THE HATERS HAVE COME OUT OF THE WOOD WORK WITH THEIR JEALOUSLY.

THE BEST YOU CAN DO PAGE IS CALL SOME A LAIR IN A HIDDEN FORUM WHERE YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE SAFE TALKING SHIT AND GOT OUTTED FOR IT.
THE BEST YOU TRY TO DO DISCREDIT SOME ONE ABOUT DATES FROM MEMORY WHICH HAPPENED OVER 50 YEARS AGO!!!!

WHY DON'T YOU TRY TO DISCREDIT A DOGMAN WHERE IT COUNTS?
THAT WILL BE A DATE YOU WON'T WANT TO REMEMBER FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE!

Still feeding one dog Mike? Or none now.
BTW, I liked how you laid to J.T. and said you owned a dog which had Ike's litter mate in the pedigree when you never owned the dog, again you were lair.
It wasn't your dog!
I remember when you inquired from I.K. about stud service to Joliet Jake and it turns out it wasn't your dog but J.S.!
If all this is suppose to BS then why did you time and time again want something?

Own what registry? Yes, I.K. did invest in one for the strain of OFRN but what's that got to do with the price of tea in China? Point of Order is?
I.K. is a Registered Kennel with ADBA and can always use their service if they chose too or how would people still be able to dual register their dogs?
Mike you run your mouth but fail to do research or you would have seen I.M. at UKC shows.
There are pictures on the Net of him with Club Presidents and Judges from UKC.
For the family, generations they have been able to register dogs with UKC.

Once again you showed you don't know what you are talking about.
Some of the family chose not have the dogs on their yard registered at all for the very reasons of the stealing, to the wrong agencies getting it.
BTW, at I.K. almost 90% of the dogs on the yard are UKC registered and has been for decades.
Do they release these papers? No and never will again.
So time and time again you proved the jealous, inept, immature person you are.

I.M. doesn't live by building himself up to discredit others as you do,
he lives by his own accomplishments as he has been done since the beginning where he shared success with his brothers and the rest of the family.
For the last 27 years it has been him alone carrying on with the kennel he named in the 70's.
None of the rest of the family wants it known of anything to do with the public in any form.

What about you Mike?
What are you noted for?
Getting recognized as a historian? LOL
It surely isn't about improving the breed by any shape or fashion.
Since you are only a book worm, to bad you had to a clown and call people lairs over little things like dates
or you could had a chance to view one of the largest libraries in the world of the APBT. Not including the pictures.

Oh that reminds me, lol, I remember on the billboard of where you thought you knew so much about C. Ponds and his dogs.
When you got put on the spot by I.M. when he posted a picture of a bunch of famous dogmen with I.M. & him in it,
you couldn't even pick him out!!!! rotflammfao @ U!
WOW he owned you on that one!

Mike why no one knows you as a dogman, is the same reason why you weren't known as a boxer, no heart!
A coward who calls others lairs in a hidden forum where I.M. already responded to you in the same manner as you did with him and he posts were deleted.
When the groupies like yourself, Al, Gino, Ed, Valerie, etc. all got it told straight from which were cur dogs, man biters, to who had Red Bone Hounds,
which had AST in them, feeling got hurt and I.M., Danger, hell even Working Dogs Board Boss got removed from the board.

Take the bet Mike.
Again you will learn from the handle KNIGHTMARE!

 

hows he gonna disrespect a mans lifes work...not cool in my book. So what he's getting old and his memory slipped on a date. Trash him like that. I've spoken with him a couple of times and he took the time to help me out and he had no interest in it. I dont need to defend him...his friends are doing fine,but from the out side looking in this mallard person has no class. This is the reason the old times wont help out the newcomers. Disrespetfull

 

You know good an well if I didn't have the information Ch. Butcher Boy fought to a draw then I wouldn't wanted to bet. Will I give you information? NO!
**You will not give the information because it doesn’t exist. You are a coward hiding behind a bet. You remind me of Mayweather ducking Pacquiao. I wish Mayweather would just step in the ring. I wish you would just man-up and produce any materials you have and in the process, proving that your word means something.

Who told you where he worked?
**You (IM) supplied the information that lead me to where he worked.

You were told just to ask him if there was a dog he owned off that breeding.
**If I was told to ask him anything, than obviously I was directed to where he worked, dumb ass.

You were given a lot information in the past and what did you do?
Call a man at his WORK PLACE and want to talk about dog fighting.
**That’s funny. If you want to know about the content of the conversation, have a look at those e-mails I sent to Joe (that you posted). In those e-mails, I am asking him to confirm things from the conversation we had over the phone, so I would have it writing. Rest assured, it was not I who brought up whether or not that dog had been tested. The e-mail you posted proves what Joe and I discussed. Per the e-mail, I wanted to know what colors the dog was throwing and if there was anything around, outside of your yard. I asked some general things about the dog and he volunteered the rest based on his comfort level with me over the phone. I confirmed this when I verified what was said last night.

J.T. told to go to email and ask what you wanted to know. He also told you he won't say anything on the phone or before he talked to Dan.
**That’s not true. He did not ask me to e-mail him anything. He didn’t expect an e-mail from me. I obtained Joe’s e-mail from the Harley website. I asked some general questions about the about the dog and he took it from there. He said nothing about talking to Dan before answering any questions. That’s the perception you are trying to create. I only e-mailed him in an effort to get what he said in writing, based on how it exposed your attempts at non-tested breedings. He later called his friend and was told to button-up, as you realized he openly shared things which consequently cast a bad light on your true breeding methods.

You laid (lied dumb ass) and used I.M., Ironman as references.
**I obviously figured out who Ironman is by now. I have never spoken to Dan, nor have I used him as a reference. I have had a few conversations with you (IM) but I have never used you as a reference either. When I talked to Joe, I stated my reason up front for inquiring about the dog. Like I said before, Joe ended up giving information that he felt like sharing, based on his comfort level during the call. You are upset because the call exposed three attempts to make a breeding from an untouched dog. I didn’t call to learn about that but Joe shared what he wanted.

You laid (lied dumb ass) and claimed you already talked to Ironman.
**No. I did not say that I spoke to Dan. Re-read the e-mail that you posted. Dan is only referenced in the e-mail because Joe volunteered that Dan picked up his dog in order to breed to him. I also confirmed last night that I never said I talked to Dan during that conversation. If Joe is saying that I dropped Dan’s name (or yours), then Joe is either mistaken or you are lying (the latter is obviously correct). Joe seemed like a pretty honorable chap, so I believe that he is either mistaken or that the alleged Ironman reference was crafted by you. If I said it, I would admit to it. I don’t know Dan, nor have I ever talked to him. Because Dan’s name is mentioned on the e-mail, you are assuming I dropped his name. Joe mentioned Dan, as he volunteered the dog was picked up three times in an attempt to breed him. I was only trying to get Joe to confirm in writing, what he said over the phone.

BTW Danger also got to hear what Ironman thought and what he wants to say to you in person but my gut feeling is, there won't be much to talk about.
**Then that’s the situation based on what he thinks.

You had to keep pressing on the phone about Ike aka Sambo
**Pressing? You are trying to paint the picture of Joe being pushed around. I am not so persuasive and Joe didn’t just fall off a turnip truck. He knew what he was saying and said what he wanted to say. I simply asked a few general questions about color and offspring and Joe took it from there. You’re trying to paint a picture of Joe as if he is a gullible and defenseless senior citizen that had his life savings taken from him. Far from it. I didn’t bend Joe’s arm. In fact, I actually enjoyed speaking to Joe as he seemed like a pretty down to earth fellow. You just don’t like what he said.

(BTW Mike you called UKC and they told you Ike was Sambo and who owned him, I.K.).
**Of all my UKC inquiries, I have never researched Sambo. I do not have an interest in Sambo, er, Duster.

J.T. told you about his Rusty dog off Ch. Iron Bobcat and Apache, you had to ask him about his fighting career ON THE PHONE AT HIS WORK PLACE!
What did you think he was going to say? You are an idiot.
**No, There was no conversation about a dog named Rusty (note that Rusty is not mentioned in my e-mail that you posted, so there’s my proof). That is your attempt to deflect what you did with Ike. Joe and I talked about Ike. You want it said that we talked about Rusty because those 3 untested breedings with Ike that were attempted were leaked.

Research? LOL who lives minutes from UKC?
Do you think people don't have fast and easy access to their stud files?
**So, if someone lives closer to a building, the information they receive is more accurate than someone who orders the exact same information over the phone? You never were very bright.

I guess the late Lyman K. didn't breed Nugget to Sambo and I guess he wasn't there at Cowboy Bob's place at the hog hunt? Hell Lyman went to all the hog hunts. Hell even Boggs writes about Lyman in the column of "Beginnings with Boggs" in SDJ.
Do you think before the thread was posted on I.K. billboard a check wasn't done with UKC?
**What does that have anything to do with the fact that you give out incorrect information that I slammed you on (Butcher Boy) and bred three times to an untested dog? If other unrelated facts are stated, is that supposed to reverse something you posted that wasn’t true? Nice try.

You think there was a fee charged? This is how I.M. knows you are a lair about paying for research!!!!!
**I’m not putting thought into whether or not the UKC charged you for information. I can tell you though that I have paid for several research pedigrees and offspring reports from the UKC. Other information however was freely obtained.

Now you want to know why the email was sent to break off contact?
Because of the way you handled it by calling and asking about dog fighting at his work place.
**It was Joe who volunteered that his dog was never touched. My agenda was not about whether or not a house pet was tested. Look at my e-mails and you will see that I was trying to find out what colors were being thrown from a Spike x Maude dog, in order to help prove or disprove the validity of your brindle near pure Hemphill dogs. You know this which is why you are doing this damage control. His dog never being touched would not have been a big deal, if it wasn’t followed up with the fact that Joe said Ike (the name he used) was taken to be bred three times. Your bold lettering and emphasis on dog fighting is an attempt to mask your true breeding methods. You are trying to make it look like I broke some kind of sacred rule, so the focus will be on rule-breaking, rather than the fact that Joe unintentionally let the cat out of the bag (meaning that you attempted to breed three times to an untested dog). Again, all of this your panicked attempt at damage control to deflect what you did.

He called Ironman about it. Danger heard what Ironman had to say about it.
J.T. also told you the pup was given back at about 3 months old. Yes, he was given to Little Joey as a house pet for the kid, who Ironman is God Father too. Rusty wasn't given as a house pet after Ike. Nor was he untested. I won't list the many well know people who saw the quality of the dogs off Ch. Iron Bear and Ch. Iron Bobcat bred to Apache like the late 2 Shoes or the breeders of Maurice POR off Daytona or the breeder of Ch. Lively or Jessie Boggs, to the owner of Ch. Gideon and the rest.
**Dog went back, huh? That’s contrary to what Joe said. I guess that’s your way to save face about the fact that the dog was untested and taken to be bred three times and to be clear, the quality of your early Iron line dogs (while Dan was involved) has never been questioned by me. From what I have been told, Dan’s involvement made that yard superior. After he left, things changed in just a few generations but that’s just my opinion.

Who are you? A no body and never will be.
**You seem to spend a lot of time obsessing over a nobody.

You dare to knock the accomplishments of I.M.? LOL
**I’m not knocking your accomplishments. I have publically written that I respect what has been achieved; however, you have a history of giving out incorrect information.
The rest is your diatribe.

Look at the dogs he bred, fed & hunted. I can't believe you think, you have the right to question the merit of any dogman who had the balls to dare to be n da [] & compare.
**I’m not questioning your history of achievements concerning dog fighting [].
I’m challenging an incorrect statement you made. The rest is just your ranting and re-directing because you got bitch slapped.

J.T. grow up with Ironman, known each other since they were kids, do you think J.T. was never around Ironman or the family when things went down?????
**What does that have to do with you making incorrect statements about history? I don’t care about the history of two people that I do not know personally. I don’t care about what they did or didn’t do. Why you are sharing that they were together during the family dog-fighting [] outings on this forum is beyond me.

DO YOU REALLY THINK J.T. WAS GOING TO TELL YOU ANYTHING?
**I had no expectations about that phone call. I was given the green light to call him, so I did. You gave his name. You gave his occupation. You gave the city that he worked it. Joe shared information that you wish he would not have, so you are turning your attention on me after the fact. Look, he felt comfortable sharing what he told me.
Just stand behind what you did.

A PERSON JUST CALLS UP HIS WORK PLACE AND ASK IF HE EVER FOUGHT A DOG WHILE LIVING IN A STATE WHICH HAS BEEN FELONY SINCE 1977?
Did you think J.T. was that stupid? J.T. is an ex Avenger and Ironman was an ex Nomad for the Avengers. Both had rode as friends with the 81.
**I don’t know what that means except that once again, you are sharing the personal history between Joe and Dan. I gather that they are both Harley enthusiasts? I don’t know why you are so compelled to publically post things about their personal lives? Joe volunteered the [] info (or lack of).

There is no truth in your post.
**I only post the truth, as I know it. In this case, as it was told to me by Joe, the owner of the dog.

you are a parrot at best and often you given the wrong information.
**You are the only one who has a history of consistently giving wrong information.

People send you stuff and like a fool you post it as factual.
**I only posted factual and verifiable documents that I find through research.

Now for the statement of I.M. claiming all Ch. Butcher Boy's matches were in 1960 or 60's?,
I believe it was in reference to dogs he produced and his most famous grand daughter was born in 1966.
**No, I re-read your post. You specifically were speaking about Clouse’s Ch. Butcher Boy and you got it wrong. I posted articles directly from Bert Clouse himself, which proved you wrong and you started sucking your thumb.

If you ever read Bloodlines Journal you will read in 1968 his neighbor owned her. For some one knowing when grand daughters were born and owning a son from her, he had years ago with the information on his website, why the possible mistake? You don't know because you were never around at those times.
**I guess being a neighbor to a person who owned a granddaughter or daughter to a dog obviously didn’t help you to accurately recall the date range of Butcher Boy’s matches. You make incorrect statements concerning historical information. So your point was?

BTW if you read Bloodlines you would also know that was the same year Irish Jerry first got into dogs! Now you want dates, there is some for you. Here is some information for you.
**and this corrects your incorrect statements about Butcher Boy’s match record?
Nice deflection but it doesn’t change that you were wrong or that you still haven’t provided documents to disprove Bert Clouse’s article. Until you do, I am correct. Er, Bert’s Correct.

But will you get the information of where and when Ch. Butcher Boy went to a draw? NADA.
**I already have the correct information. I willfully and freely posted it. You were incorrect about your facts, you were called on it and instead of being forthright, you are doing your pathetic dance around tactic.

But I will give you a little more information
read what Howard said about Bert in 1960 Your Friend and Mine about Baldly and rest of Bert dogs. LMAO! Bert never said a word in return...
**I’m glad you mentioned Howard Heinzl’s article about Bert Clouse and Baldy, as what Howard wrote was largely a huge compliment to Bert Clouse. Due to your weak level of understanding, you have poor reading comprehension and failed to understand Howard’s point. Howard’s article was an attempt to show how even though the emphasis at the time was on using a top dog in the pit, that conditioning and handling were just as important in the winning equation. Howard felt that people were beginning to forget this

In the article you referenced, Howard used Bert Clouse and Baldy as an example to show that even though the emphasis at that time was being put on using a top dog, you could get more out of a combatant if you had good skills in developing, conditioning and handling a dog. Even to the point that you could beat a better dog (which is what Clouse often did)!

Clouse’s Baldy was not from the foundation Clouse bloodline. Clouse obtained Baldy from Howard Heinzl (which is likely why Howard used Baldy and Clouse to back up his point).
Baldy was a sister to Heinzl’s Bambi, who was the mother to Tudor’s Dibo.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=80427
Per Howard Heinzl, Baldy was not an exceptional pit dog but under Mr. Clouse’s ownership, he was developed into a champion pit dog, winning best of show honors in a convention.

In fact, when Howard heard that Bert Clouse won best in show with Howard’s Baldy dog at a convention, he said he would have lost money, meaning that he would have bet against Baldy. That’s how good Clouse was at developing a dog. This supports Howard’s point that if you have the skill to develop, condition and handle a dog, you can take an example not thought of as being a worthwhile prospect and turn it into something special. As I stated earlier, Baldy was not from the foundation Clouse strain but it was common for Bert to condition and handle dogs that were not from his bloodline, as he was sought after and held in high regard as a conditioner, handler and referee.

Per Tudor’s words, Clouse would match into better dogs than what he had and still manage to win. This is from Howard’s article you referenced.

This all reminds me of a more current situation when a heavy Clouse dog named Rascal was once under the control of a local sportsman. This sportsman was ready to put Rascal down, as he did not like his style or mannerisms. The dog was then placed with another person, who developed him a little differently, based on his level of understanding. Rascal went on to make two different dogs quit. Both of those dogs that quit were two-time winners. This was the same dog that was almost put down so you see, history is a good teacher if it is reported accurately. So get it straight. The reverse is also true in that no matter who you are or what you’ve achieved, there will be instances where you can’t win them all.

When I began to seek information about Bert Clouse, I had the honor of visiting with Mr. Heinzl for quite a while at his house and learned that he had a great deal of respect for Mr. Clouse. He considered Bert Clouse as one of the great men in the history of the game. I learned other things that day for which I remain very grateful.

Like I said before, there is no magic in winning. If your deck is stacked too far against your, there’s not a whole lot you can do, no matter your credentials and accomplishemnts. For example, before Bullyson quit to his son Benny Bob, a few veterans detected that Bullyson probably could not take what he dished out. Bud Moore then set up a match to use his Clouse bred dog against Bullyson. I think the objective here was to lean on the gameness that Clouse dogs were known for in order to weather the storm and then put the quit on Bullyson. Well, it didn’t quite work out that way. Moore’s dog was four years old and rolled only once prior to the match. Stupid. Moore’s dog was not in condition and four pounds over his own pit weight. Stupid. Per Don’s report, Bullyson was four pounds heavier than Moore’s dog (another report has Bullyson 2.75 lbs heavier). If both dogs were in shape, Don’s report has Bullyson with an 8 pound natural size advantage, while the other report would have him 6.75 lbs over. Bert Clouse neither arranged this match nor did he condition Moore’s dog. Bert however was asked to handle the dog from his breeding, so he did but in this instance there was nothing he could really do. Moore’s dog was too small and not in shape. Bullyson had his way and per the Pit Dog Report, Clouse conceded the match in 20 (the other report show’s 10). It was said that Bullyson was eating Moore’s dogs alive! In an interview with Bobby Hall, when asked if he could give an example of a game dog, Mr. Hall replied, “Yes, I sure can”, “The dog that lost to BULLYSON, the one that Bert Clouse had, that was the best example that I’ve ever seen of it. He showed something like 300 people what a Game dog looks like, he lost the fight, but the crowd gave him a standing ovation. This happened almost 20 years ago (at the time of the interview), but it is rare that you see a dog like that.”

Again, the purpose of this was to clarify what Heinzl was saying (with his own words) because you just can’t get your facts straight!

 

For a person who knows everything about everyone,
**That’s what you say. Not me. I don’t know that many people and I keep it that way.

now claims he doesn't know who Ironman is though you claimed to talk to him.
**I never talked to Dan. That’s what you added in an attempt to create more of a smoke screen because an untested dog was taken to be bred three times.

You claim you don't know the handle but you claim you been dogs all these years when you haven't.
**What years? I have publically written when I was in and when I was out. That hasn’t changed. I have a small circle of people that I deal with, so when you start throwing out handles, don’t be surprised if I don’t know who you’re talking about.

You claim you are in the know of the dog game
**Never said that. You obviously are the one who thinks that way about me (and that bugs the hell out of you). I assume you think that I am in the know, because you keep saying it. I published what Bert Clouse wrote. That’s all. You are refuting Bert’s words, not mine, yet you turned your attention to me, because I exposed your incorrect statement. Look, just get your facts straight before you open your pie hole.

but yet when I post about Ironman you don't claim you know who he is...
**Again? That’s your post about Ironman, not mine. Note that I didn’t drop names as a reference in the e-mail you posted, which further supports I never dropped his name (or yours).

You clearly outted yourself of not knowing diddly swat because there are letters in SDJ by him. i.e. the one in response to Millmaker about Maurice.
**Listen boo boo, I keep telling you, I never said I’m this all knowing guy when it comes to dogs. You keep singing that song because you feel the need to convince the readers of this post. Like a far left wing bitch activist, you create drama so that controversy masks the real issues. There are a few dog related subjects that I have put a lot of time and resources into and I can only speak confidently in those instances; however, if you feel better by giving me on-line dog quizzes so I can fail in answering in front of everybody, you can keep doing that. Just know that none of your shenanigans will disqualify me for sharing historical documents. What I know or don’t know does not change the validity of any historical documents I post, as those documents were authored by the men who owned the dogs, in their time; therefore, you cannot re-write history. Despite your efforts, I’m not going to stop sharing pertinent information. For example, if I share a hand written letter from Howard Heinzl that was written to me, then those words are Howard’s words. Not mine. If I share rare pictures of a historical nature that have not been widely published, those pictures do not have less value because I posted them. You can try your laughable attempts to discredit me all you want. I think it’s funny that up front, I admit I’m nothing special (just a pea in a pod) and then you spend time trying to prove what I already disclosed about myself. When it comes to dogs, I don’t have a problem with what I know or don’t know. When you tell me, “You were only involved for 11 years”, well, I don’t have a problem with that. It was a good 11 years. I don’t need your approval and when you share information that is not accurate, I will correct you.

LOL Mike as for the sport of prize fighting, records have been kept for years, you are a joke, no more then a punching bag. You couldn't lick your lips!
**Grasping for straws again? Prize fighting suggests I fought professionally. I never fought professionally. I’ve been offered money to clobber a few people but I didn’t train for that. Once more you manifest lies, for the sole purpose of trying to devalue the information I post. You are pathetic. I posted a historical document, authored by Bert Clouse. Your opinion of me will not change the validity of the historical information I posted. Your sophomoric attempt to shape the opinions of others about me also does not change the validity of the historical information I shared. You are not a reliable source of accurate information and it bugs you that I pointed you were wrong. That is all this is.

Now who trying appear as a tuff guy bullying?
**You wrote that I was hit in the head too often (which I wasn’t). That suggested you were referencing my past training and/or fight experience. I’m not trying to bully anyone. In fact, my training should suggest even to a Neanderthal like yourself that I am the opposite of a bully. A person with significant rank or experience does not use their fighting skill to intimidate others. If what I wrote intimidated you and made you feel bullied, then I think you have exposed a higher level of cowardice than I previously thought you had. Pull your pants up and quit sucking your thumb. Get out of the fetal position and stop dialing 911. Everything’s OK! Really, everything’s OK! I’m not a bully!

Now for Gino, Mike you are a lair that anyone admitted the papers on Gino's or Danger isn't bred as said.
**Wrong again! I have several instances from credible people who dispute those pedigrees. It wasn’t me who started waiving that flag but there is certainly evidence to refute it.

D.S. screwed with Gino's head because Gino is ass, you or no one else would ever post it because everyone knows it doesn't list all the breeding in the letter. This why D.S. screwed with Gino because Gino made false claims about Danger's pedigree.
**I don’t care about the fusses between those people. I only care about true facts. Facts have been presented to me that dispute the validity of those peds. Those are not my conclusions, those were the facts presented to me. Those facts have been presented to other people as well. You’re worried I’m going to post it so you’re doing some pre-damage control. I really don’t care about that as I don’t currently own stock from that blood. Nor will I but if you ask my opinion, I don’t believe those peds. It’s just my opinion. I’m a nobody right? So don’t stress over what I think.

I.M. has posted to Quincy aka DeDude, about when and where he wanted to do DNA comparison. Not one of you have the balls to find out the truth.
**Now you are contradicting yourself (lying) again. As I was attempting to find information about the color of the dogs with Joe, so you wrote this: You are to break off all contact and inquiries. You are requested to not to try to circumvent your future searches for information by this manner in the future. **You wrote, not to try to circumvent your future searches. Think of those words you wrote. You are an illiterate monkey.

LETS ALL KNOW THE REAL TRUTH OF WHAT THE PROBLEM IS,
ALL OF YOU GOT X OUT OF HAVING THE CHOICE TO OBTAIN DANGER.
**After what I learned, I don’t want the dog. Nor do I want anything from that line.
Although I admit some pretty damn good dogs are coming down from that stuff.

THE BEST YOU TRY TO DO DISCREDIT SOME ONE ABOUT DATES FROM MEMORY WHICH HAPPENED OVER 50 YEARS AGO!!!!
**You learned about when you read about it. All you need to do is get your facts straight before you resolutely post something, as your don’t retain what you read. Not everyone has a good noodle so stop stressing..

WHY DON'T YOU TRY TO DISCREDIT A DOGMAN WHERE IT COUNTS?
THAT WILL BE A DATE YOU WON'T WANT TO REMEMBER FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE!
**I’m not a dog fighter. I only care about history concerning these dogs being accurately presented. If you beat me in a dog fight, the information you errantly posted will still be inaccurate, so what’s the point?

BTW, I liked how you laid (lied stupid) to J.T. and said you owned a dog which had Ike's litter mate in the pedigree when you never owned the dog, again you were lair.
It wasn't your dog!
**Dogs in his pedigree were also in the pedigree to a bitch I owned. Fact! That was the only connection made to you or your family. Verified!

I remember when you inquired from I.K. about stud service to Joliet Jake and it turns out it wasn't your dog but J.S.!
**You show again that you can’t stay focused on a subject or remember anything correctly.
JS asked me to assist with getting his Boxi II bitch breed to Joliet Jake, so I got involved. After you and JS took the negotiations over, JS decided against it because you didn’t offer enough straws to satisfy what he thought was needed for the breeding to work and if the breeding would not have worked, you said you would not guarantee the breeding. As well, James verified that Joliet Jake’s DNA was not profiled at the time. James’ female was never represented as mine. JS recalls the conversation and e-mails, just as I stated. Get your facts straight. The e-mails back it up and so does James.


If all this is suppose to BS then why did you time and time again want something?
**Two times is time and time again? One of those two times was on behalf of JS and besides, I never said that Jake’s ped was in question. I thought the straight Ironline blood (without all the crosses that are in it now) would work well with heavy Clouse blood. So did JS. That’s why JS wanted to breed Joliet Jake to Boxie II. It’s your Hemphill version of dogs that I and several others do not believe is bred as papered, not your old Ironline blood. Get that straight.

Mike you run your mouth but fail to do research or you would have seen I.M. at UKC shows.
There are pictures on the Net of him with Club Presidents and Judges from UKC.
For the family, generations they have been able to register dogs with UKC.
**Anyone can show up at a dog show. When was the last time you judged a point show for the UKC or ADBA? You put down the UKC and ADBA and wonder why they don’t want you around? Go figure.

So time and time again you proved the jealous, inept, immature person you are.
**So if I contest an incorrect statement you make, I am all of those things? Nice try.

I.M. doesn't live by building himself up to discredit others as you do,
**Look Mike, you have spent this whole post (which you started) trying to discredit me. Any of the sites you have been on (including this one) is full of your posts, putting down other red nose breeders and trying to build up a cache of zealots, who believe you are the only game in town so they will buy your pups. You operate in a pathetic manner.

he lives by his own accomplishments as he has been done since the beginning where he shared success with his brothers and the rest of the family.
**While your brother was involved, what came out of your yard was top stuff!

For the last 27 years it has been him alone carrying on with the kennel he named in the 70's. None of the rest of the family wants it known of anything to do with the public in any form.
**That’s another croc of crap. Any of the sites you have been on (including this one) is full of your post talking about your past matches, current dogs, where you’ve been, who you know, challenging people, etc. You think people don’t read your posts? You are not only a liar, you are a notorious liar.

What about you Mike? What are you noted for? Getting recognized as a historian?
**The only one who recognizes me as a historian is you, since you continue to call me that. I keep telling you, I’m just a pea in the pod. The dog biz was simply a hobby of mine for a while. All I do now is post historical documents from time to time.

It surely isn't about improving the breed by any shape or fashion. Since you are only a book worm, to bad you had to a clown and call people lairs over little things like dates
or you could had a chance to view one of the largest libraries in the world of the APBT.
Not including the pictures.
**You have nothing worthwhile to offer me because a person’s word is supposed to mean something and you have proven that your word and moral character are no good. Besides, my library of old periodicals dwarfs yours.

Oh that reminds me, lol, I remember on the billboard of where you thought you knew so much about C. Ponds and his dogs.
**A billboard is where people pay money to advertise on large signs adjacent to highways. I think you are referring to a message board. Again, one of your quizzes to show that I don’t know everybody or everything? I’m good with what I know or don’t know. You are the one with the problem.

When you got put on the spot by I.M. when he posted a picture of a bunch of famous dogmen with I.M. & him in it, you couldn't even pick him out!!!! rotflammfao @ U!
WOW he owned you on that one!
**You were the fat one in the back.

Mike why no one knows you as a dogman, is the same reason why you weren't known as a boxer, no heart!
**Boy, you are really grasping for anything you can hold on to. I was never known as a boxer, because I was not a boxer. I trained with boxers for a while. I beat the shit out of a few boxers (and vice versa) but that wasn’t my main gig.

A coward who calls others lairs in a hidden forum where I.M. already responded to you in the same manner as you did with him and he posts were deleted.
**hidden? C’mon now! We all know your spies will forward everything. Besides, you asked NorCal to delete your posts, after challenging the beginners on that board to dog fights.
Those posts are still there!

When the groupies like yourself, Al, Gino, Ed, Valerie, etc. all got it told straight from which were cur dogs, man biters, to who had Red Bone Hounds, which had AST in them, feeling got hurt and I.M., Danger, hell even Working Dogs Board Boss got removed from the board.
**you were booted because you are a divisive person, have poor self control and morally challenged character.

**In regards to my e-mail to Joe, you wrote this and sent it to me:
“the lie you wrote in email in attempt to have claimed to talk to Joey, would you like me to post the email? You stated you had talked to him when you never did”.

**Mike, you say that I never talked to Joey but in this very string of posts, you wrote:
Mike, as Joe stated to you
**Okay dumb ass, listen closely. How did Joe “state” something to me, if I never talked to him?

 

Now for Gino, Mike you are a lair that anyone admitted the papers on Gino's or Danger isn't bred as said.
**Wrong again! I have several instances from credible people who dispute those pedigrees. It wasn’t me who started waiving that flag but there is certainly evidence to refute it.

D.S. screwed with Gino's head because Gino is ass, you or no one else would ever post it because everyone knows it doesn't list all the breeding in the letter. This why D.S. screwed with Gino because Gino made false claims about Danger's pedigree.
**I don’t care about the fusses between those people. I only care about true facts. Facts have been presented to me that dispute the validity of those peds. Those are not my conclusions, those were the facts presented to me. Those facts have been presented to other people as well. You’re worried I’m going to post it so you’re doing some pre-damage control. I really don’t care about that as I don’t currently own stock from that blood. Nor will I but if you ask my opinion, I don’t believe those peds. It’s just my opinion. I’m a nobody right? So don’t stress over what I think.

********
Now I could care less and give a rat's cock Mallard about your beef with I.M. but when my dogs are included I will comment with FACTS!

I personally have had Danger and Scarlet DNA profiled with UC Davis and have had the DNA compared to verify the pedigrees. Both dogs thru DNA were VERIFIED by UC Davis to be as their pedigrees say thru DNA!

Mallard you are one of the haters who doubted the pedigrees and you were asked by me wager if the pedigrees are correct thru DNA. You chose not to which I don't understand because when I'm sure of something or talk SHIT about something I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is maybe that's the difference between me and you.

Gino left a DNA crumb trail when he had Tiger, Sierra and Princess DNA profiled with UC Davis! I guess his jealousy got the best of Gino because Danger's DNA compared to Tiger's DNA shows that his pedigree is EXACTLY as it says! Sacrlet's DNA compared to Tiger's DNA shows that her pedigree is EXACTLYas her pedigree says!

Mallard since you live in Southern Cal UC Davis has a satelite university less than 40 miles from you doorstep and this is what I'm STILL willing to do for the same wager amount.

1) I will transport both Danger and Scarlet to the UC Davis satelite university in southern California.

2) The tech will swab both dogs live and in front of both me and you.

3) DNA will be compared between the two to determine exactly how they are related thru pedigrees.

4) DNA from Danger and Scarlet can be compared to Tiger or Tiger, Princess or Sierra to further compare DNA.

5) I will post the results of the DNA with you as a witness and my results from my previous comparison on this very board!

Mallard now its time for you and all the other hates to step up or shut! You can't fake DNA and blood always tells!

 

Well i know when ironmike used to go on dons chat he soon shut the fuck up , when don seen through him and his line of bullshit.

 

This was my proposal, which you already refused.
To: jb@com
Subject: Re: AMMONS' HEMPHILL CHEYENNE
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:12:21 -0400
From: sl@.com

In order to provide credible evidence as to the authenticity of how your dogs are bred, the testing needs to be done by an independent party. As well, the selected subjects should be from unrelated yards. By using dogs that are owned by you for testing, the objectivity and integrity of an independent audit has been compromised. That is, since you advertise and sell dogs as being down from a high percentage of Hemphill blood, you will be thought of as having financial motivations for proving your side; therefore, you have tainted the credibility of the audit by your own perceived wants. By having the test conducted by an independent auditor and using subjects from unrelated yards, there will be no question as to what your true intentions are, as you will have no influence on the outcome.

Here is how it should play out.
I will oversee the audit.

Danger will be taken to a local vet for DNA extraction by that dog’s current owner.
That extraction needs to be accompanied by the person overseeing the audit.
Pictures will be taken of the extraction.

A littermate to Scarlett (not under your control) will be taken to a local vet for DNA extraction by that dog’s current owner. That extraction needs to be accompanied by the person overseeing the audit. Pictures will be taken of the extraction.

A dog down from Danger and Scarlet ancestry (not under your control) will be taken to a local vet for DNA extraction by that dog’s current owner. That extraction needs to be accompanied by the person overseeing the audit. Pictures will be taken of the extraction.

The above will be coordinated by the auditor and respective dog owners.

For each dog, the ADBA certificate must me present during DNA extraction. A notary public will be present, verifying that sworn statements were given by the owner of each dog, acknowledging that the dog used for DNA testing is the same dog as listed on the ADBA certificate. The lab technician will also testify that results were sent straight to the testing lab and not touched or manipulated by the owner of any dog or the auditor. The auditor will choose the lab. The seven generation pedigree of the dog down from Danger and Scarlet ancestry will be forwarded to the lab.

The results we are looking for will prove or disprove the following:
That Scarlet’s littermate is bred from the same DNA as Danger.
The dog said to be bred down from Danger and Scarlet ancestry is bred as papered.
The results will be sent directly to you and I, via registered letter.
The test results will be conclusive.

I am a big OFRN fan. I would love to be able to wave the flag for ANY successful OFRN program. Believe it or not, I can see beyond Mike’s idiosyncrasies and would like to promote that situation but as of right now, there is just too much information that opposes his claims. An independent audit will conclusively prove the truth, one way or another.

We can exclude the following dogs for testing:
We can’t used Arrow for testing as he is gone. When she did not have a 14 lb weight advantage, Cheyenne proved to be an 8 minute cur, so she cannot be used.

Since you selected me to make your bet with, you have already disclosed that you want me to know the truth. You have said to me personally that you see me as an honest person; therefore, you should not have an issue with me being the auditor. You also disclosed that you have $5,000.00 of disposable income. Let’s you and I split the cost of the entire audit. The idea of using a notary public to documents the individual DNA extractions will provide proof that per the above, all is truthful and straight; however, I will welcome your attendance at the various vet locations.

 

What he said.......P.s that was a shit ton of reading lmao