Acceptable Levels of Dog Aggro

Fair Enough.....

 

...lol sorry dude I mean cleave 86 is wrong...

 

Well prove me wrong than my friend. Natural selection would not allow for an species to evolve, let alone continue to exist, that would kill itself off. In dire times? Maybe, but not NORMALLY. Cannibalism is COMPLETELY unnatural...doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all, it's just not common at all.

Put it this way...there is for sure going to be some level of dog aggro in wild dogs, just as there will be some in domestic dogs, if not more since they don't generally live in packs like wild dogs do. However, as I said before, pit bulls could never in a million years survive as a pack. The level of dog aggro bred into and selected for in this breed is completely out of the ordinary. Your average pit bull is going to be much, much more dog aggro than your average wolf. Comparing the two just doesn't make any sense whatsoever...hence the reason I think the whole "alpha dog" concept is pretty bogus when it comes to this breed.

 

It doesnt need hard times for dogs(or wolves) to kill a member of the own Pack.....two dominant males or females and such thing can happen in your livingroom. If we talk about wolves it is in most cases a first position fight that can end deadly. A strange wolve would be killed before you can say bikini....not to talk about kojotes ,badgers or cats. If you watch a pack wolves for some month you will notice that there is a high aggresionpotential..much higher than that from most dogbreeds....wolves need it to comunicate.....if you watch a pack of bulldogs you will notice that there is by far not that much aggressive behavior....sometimes a look is enough to comunicate. Look at the dogpark, many strange dogs play with each other......try the same with wolves and you know wich of them (wolve or dog) is more aggressive. And now to the canibalthing.....yes if times are hard enough your dog will eat you...for sure! For example if you die in your house and your dog is with you there...maybe not the first or second day.....but after a while he would nip at you. I talked about wolves that eat each other in hard times....for example in alaska, yes thats true if the pack member is dead he is only proteine, meat. Yes i know humans dont like it to think about souch trues.....they like disney.....do you ever thought about why dogs eat sometimes the crap of humans....? Well, they eat the crap from humans, horses, cattle,or from other dogs, but never from cats,badgers or kojotes or foxes.The answer is they only eat the crap of her prey.......yes some thousand years back W E were nothing more than prey....and today we love disney. And last not least...if you watch Pitbulls for a while you would notice they dont lost theyr natural behavior....they are only superior fighter.

 

If that's what you want to believe, than go right ahead. I say site your source. Like I said, some aggression (like the dominance/alpha issue) is going to be present, but wild animals will rarely fight to the point that one of them dies...certainly not as frequently as you would find in pit bulls. If the dog aggression found in pit bulls is so normal, explain to me why they are one of the very few breeds that (responsible) people will absolutely NOT leave alone together. And why Beagles and other hound breeds are often housed in packs rather than individually? There is a huge range of aggression found in all dogs, and it is very elevated in pit bulls as a whole. To deny that is just...dumbfounding.

And try telling cat and dog owners that dogs don't eat cat feces. I believe we call it "kitty rocha" around here.

It's not about Disney, it's about whats REAL, what's NATURAL. Killing your own species is not natural. If it were so commonplace, how did wolves evolve? If males killed each other off as often as you say, how would they have reproduced? Wolves may show much more aggressive BEHAVIOR (baring teeth, growling, etc.) but not actual FIGHTS like you would find in a pack of pit bulls, as these behaviors are really designed to AVOID fights.

And once again, what does the possibility of a domestic dog eating his dead owner have to do with it? Of course he would...after we die, all we are to them (and in reality, to anyone) is a body...complete with meat, bones, and other yummy edibles. THAT'S natural...dogs are scavengers...not cannibals.

 

Its ok ... lol ... I see you are scared.....its absolut nothing wrong with that what i tould you ...research it. I dont write what just pope into my head.....regards

 

now , speaking back on topic of dog aggression, placing an out of the world dog aggressive dog that will go thru doors, walls, windows to get at another dog is not placeable. that is my opinion.

as far as wolves vs dogs.. wolves are highly evolved to work together as a pack based on behaviors .. The showing of teeth, hackles raised, are all warnings. most pack members will not let the warnings escalate into a full fledged fight. and if a fight ensues, the wolf willnot fight to the death. theywill fight to beat down the weaker wolf.. a pit bull will not stop fighting even if the other dog submits.. pit bulls will not submit to other dogs, nor will they stop fighting if the other dog submits..

apples and oranges...

and eating dead things is not cannibalism..

 

Ok...like it or hate it but Wolves kill sometimes each other in a fight.Selection without killing is not Selection. Tiger kill sometimes each other in a fight (ca. 25% of males die in fights with each other). And yes Pitbulls have preydrive.....and if you believe they are not able to hunt in packs ...well, then you have never seen some game Bulldogs on hogs.....and...lol....last not least....eating dead things is not cannibalism..... that would mean if you eat a dead family member that would be not cannibalism....? Come on now...! LOL And now some think to the topic....I think the best case your dog only fight wen ataked....like my jimbo...but sometimes you get a living missile...like my spike...and then you should be a novice to handle it...

 

Selection without killing most certainly can be selection.

For instance, if a male dog who continually loses fights does not get to breed, his genes may well die with him, even if he survives many years after a fight. On the other hand, the dog who wins the fight may gets to breed, but then after a couple days die of an infection resulting from injuries sustained in the fight. Even so, his genes live on in his progeny.

Anyway, gameness is most definitely not a survival advantage in a wild dog or wolf. That is why we humans have had to artificially select for gameness.

 

Who's skerrrred? I guess continuing a debate means I'm scared? Hmmmmm....

I never denied that wolves will sometimes kill each other in fights. I'm arguing that it's not commonplace...and that wolf behavior does not in any way, shape, or form translate into pit bull behavior. It's called evolution, and as Sid (and others) have pointed out, we have articificially selected for the traits we find in all breeds, including an increased dog aggro in pit bulls and fluffy hair in poodles, and in my case, squished up noses in Boxers. Do you think that would occur in wolves? Not a chance...just as we have selected for different looks in domestic dogs, we've also selected for certain temperaments. The CORE dog, the wolf, is still there, but to a varying degree. I would say pit bulls are hardly a primative breed, especially when compared to a Malamute or other Arctic breeds.

Either way it appears this isn't getting anywhere, so cheers!

 

Cheers, but serious think and research about evolution.....that what you called evolution is for sure not evolution.....yes darwin used it as an model, but it isnt evolution...far from that.......yes we domesticatet the wolve and have given him differend genetic tasks, thatswhy we have differend dogbreds...but thats not evolution...evolution means million of years .But what has that to do with that what I sayd? I sayd wolves kill sometimes each other and eat sometimes each other....and that its natural.And by the way...you talked about dogs like malamuts and for example groenlanddogs...lol....this dogs kill and eat other dogs.....be carefull with your podle arround them... yes this dogs are very close to the origin, the wolve.

 

Our breed does not undergo much natural selection at all....or natural evolution. Everything they do, down to who they breed with and what type of feed they eat is our choice-not theirs, or natures. Evolution means letting animals change to adapt to their surroundings, when we start getting involved its no longer Natural selection. I dont see what this has to do with placing dog-aggressive bulldogs, maybe someone can shed some light on what I'm missing? LOL

 

In regards to the original question concerning dog aggression while breeding and rescuing:
In my opinion, if you are breeding correctly you will produce highly dog aggressive APBTs. The dog should be bred to be aggressive enough to scratch and game enough to keep scratching. Back in the day, how would the oldtimers prove their dogs game if they were too cold to scratch? This does not mean they bred for aggression. However, it comes with the territory, if you are breeding correctly. If you are breeding cold dogs because you think you are being safe, you are doing the breed a great injustice. If you can't handle the dogs as they are supposed to be, you should be working with a different breed that is naturally not aggressive. If it's too hot, get the hell out of the kitchen!

If you are placing a rescued dog aggressive APBT, as TX said, they should have thorough knowledge of the breed. If not, the dog would be better off put to sleep.

 

hello folks, I have been gone for some time but "I'm back". I have been training dogs or I should say learning how to with a man that specializes in personal protection dogs. I also come from the rescue side of the bulls. What I have seen is that a properly trained dog even if he is dog aggressive can be kept under control while on leash. Now off the leash I can add nothing, so to place a dog aggressive dog in a multi dog home where the owners are not prepared and experianced with this or any other breed would be maddness waiting to happen. I must agree that Bulls, Presas and other large or high dogs are not for everyone and rescuers should be aware of this simple fact.

 

I dunno I was told me female was severly dog aggressive when I got her.But it's mostly a dominance thing.If she can't dominate then there will be problems but I have a puppy too who she does fine with.

 

"Bump"
why does everyone want to change the apbt? Doesn't make sense....

 

I am pretty sure every breed of dog has animal aggression within it, in some form.[/QUOTE] Well with that I agree in fact that is what I try to explain......but what I realy dont understand is that you all the time try to compare scratching with dogaggression....that makes from my(and others) point of view no sense. For example many Bandoges or Rottweiler are one hell with other dogs I mean they are extreme dogaggressive ........but if they fight say 20 or at least maybe 35 min they stud the line...they dont scratch. You know that some Bulldogs go well with other dogs.....sorry or is that something I shoud not say....? However if this Bulldogs been ataked by another dog and they START to fight they dont stop until the work is done.....and they scratch deep in the fight. I dont say that Bulldogs are not Dogaggressive because that were a true idiotic statement.....the same as I would say Rottweiler are not dogaggressive....there is no reason for that.I say only that dogaggressive is not the important thing that a dog need to scratch...especial deep in the fight...in fact I think thats the last thing he need. And by the way .....and again....I n e v e r sayd that Bulldogs are not dog and animalaggressive n e v e r because nearly all strong dogs have this more or less....so why should a Bulldog be differend? Makes no sense or? Ok I dont need trouble but if it is imposible to speak my mind on a board....I mean is that not the reason for a board? And last not least I was allways friendly in my postings and you jump on me realy aggressive....why? I am not aggressive but dont think that iam not game.....and dont think iam stupid becose of my bad ass english, if you think you are more inteligent then write in german, i tell you than how inteligent it looks... so shake hands ok?