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The Myth of Best to Best Explained

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by Vicki, Jun 20, 2015.

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  1. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Staff Member

    From: THE MYTH OF EXPLAINED!!! | Sporting Dog News

    Hi folks, in following up as promised, and especially on my last sentence at the very end of my last posted article here a short explanation of the Myth of breeding best to best REGARDLESS. I post all this cause the quality of our beloved breed is hurtling towards disaster at present out of sheer ignorance,extremely mildly put, of the majority of present day breeders. Pedigrees, read : background knowledge, might not be important to this kind of Dumbos, sorry there, but luckily they’re a highly valuable tool for the last of the Mohicans struggling to save the Real American Pit bull terrier. Thanks! By L.C.Brackett and others.

    Danger in Continued Out Crossing

    When salubrious results are obtained in the first generation of an out cross, many breeders think-, the mating was an unqualified success and all they need do thereafter is to continue such out crossing to become great breeders with an established type of their own, producing a high average of good ones. They could not be more mistaken since the exact opposite is sure to occur. I can do no better than quote here from the world-famous geneticist Dr. E. Fitch Daglish, who is also a contributor to DOG WORLD. The following is an excerpt from his article (Invisible Factors Inherited) in the June l959 issue: “One of the fundamental principles of genetics is that it is not the visible properties of individuals that are inherited but those factors or genes which endow them with the ability to produce certain qualities under certain conditions. When two animals differing in genetic make-up are mated, their offspring must be genetically impure in varying degrees however closely the two parents may resemble each other in outward appearance. It is this, which causes the wide variation in size, shape, constitution and so on that is invariably seen is, the second generation of cross breeds. Impressive examples are furnished by the familiar utility crosses in poultry, cattle and pigs produced by farmers. Such first crosses are, as a rule, very uniform in appearance and for certain purposes are preferred as layers or fatteners, but if such hybrids are bred from the results are always disappointing. They are impure in respect to so many genes for all those factors in which their parents differed that their progeny show the widest variations and include a large proportion of individuals of very low quality from whatever point of view they are judged. “It may be objected that what happens when different breeds are crossed is not relevant to the effects to be expected from out crossing within a single breed but, genetically out crossing and crossbreeding differ only in degree. Both involve the mating of individuals whose genetic constitution is almost certain to differ widely so that there must be a drastic reshuffling of genes in the offspring.” It should be remembered, therefore, that as dog breeders we are dealing not only with the physical structure of a mating pair, but with the GENES inherited from the forbears shown in their PEDIGREES.

    Failing of Many Breeders

    The number of breeders who know practically nothing about the ancestors of their dogs is appalling. Many cannot even name when asked, without looking at a pedigree, the names of the sire and dam of a dog or dogs they own. Were they asked for a four-generation pedigree of one of their dogs, only a few could write it from memory. In my breeding days I could do this on any one of a hundred or more dogs in my kennel, with seldom an error. My contention is that, unless a breeder can do likewise and also has quite a complete knowledge of the virtues and faults of all the ancestors through at least the third generation and even further back is preferable he will not become even a good breeder, let alone a great one. He MUST KNOW from whence came certain traits, both desired and undesired, if he expects to retain or eliminate them. This cannot be accomplished by hit-or-miss breedings, be they inbred, line bred, or, most certainly, out cross.

    This entry was posted in Breeding and tagged Breeding Genetic on 17 de January de 2015 by admin
    Article source: THE MYTH OF EXPLAINED!!! | Sporting Dog News
     
    Vicki, Jun 20, 2015
    #1
  2. Red Jam

    Red Jam Pup

    Interesting read.
     
    Red Jam, Jun 20, 2015
    #2
  3. Dream Pits

    Dream Pits CH Dog

    I could think of a better description
     
    Dream Pits, Jun 21, 2015
    #3
  4. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog

    Good stuff. But would like to ad more.
    Since the begging families of dogs come from knowledge of dogs. YOU ONLY KNOW WHAT YOU SEE!
    Most do it for "PRETTY PAPERS" than consistency.
    Best - Best works best when breeding dogs from the same family.
    Crossing battle cross - Battle cross with no common dogs is making mutts with papers.
    The word mutt means mixed, meaning no consistency. You have to be consistent! Meaning breeding family.
    Every body cross @ some point but they go back to foundation to maintain traits that the family is known for.
    All pups in any little or not the same & most cases not all pups will be ch or even produce working dogs just because the parents are.
    You see each & every outcross puts the breeder back to the restart button. Period just a fact. You have to relearn what you feed. How much or even if any can be used top meet your desires. Just because 2 dogs crossed & worked don't mean that they work for you or ever even work again. That's not how it works.
    And most have better thins to do with there time than consistently starting over learning what they feed. Crosses may sound good in theory but the fact is simple. Cross a bolio with a redboy & it's neither one but something different with Bolio & Redboy in it. Any real dog man worth his or her salt "KNOWS" that not every dog in the litters are all the same. They may have good attitudes but yet still Mediocre dogs.
    Some may be strait out curs but have belly mates with tittles. THAT'S WHY THE WORD & ACT OF CULLING still is a major part in breeding of all animals.
    2 dogs pure from the same family that have tittles don't guarantee all or any of the pups will earn tittles so 2 dogs of different families definantly doesn't guarantee you anything but pretty papers.
    A lot in my experience is done more for egos than performance & definantly not done for reproducing like dogs or else you will consistently breed the same..
    Most have it backwards these days & think a pure family means peddlers & scatter bred means performance.
    When a person consistently handles & see's each dog perform & breed based on his or her likes than there name will be consistent in that pedigree. And in time that family will grow generation by generation.
    Pure families are bred for consistence & nothing else. This keeps the guessing game out. After 1/2 a dozen of generations or more will know more than enough of the performance skills that it will do in a hunt.
    You just look for the ones that like it. Pure families will pass traits more than any scatter bred dog re-guard less of best - best approach if non related dogs .
    If you want to save time & money than stay consistent or you'll always guess & wonder more about the next generation than actually know.
    Sometimes it seems like people just sold a lot of dogs with out teaching them how & why to breed the family dogs they sold. I guess to keep them coming back for more when they couldn't get it right.
    The more you learn the more you'll save. Both time & money.
     
    ziggy311, Jun 21, 2015
    #4
  5. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    Nice read, both the original post and ziggys.
    I agree, for myself anyways, best to best from the same family is where consistency is at.
     
    AGK, Jun 21, 2015
    #5
  6. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog

    Breeding dogs for performance is just like anything. There more than just one or two ways to do it.
    If you feed a dog that you like build a line on re-guard less of what family it comes from keep it simple. The best dogs to breed it with are dogs that come down from it or the same dog. Not from someone else's yard but from your own. Base your family off what you like & have seen yourself. Breed that dog to x amount & take best-best from them not best from your yard to best of someone else's & then take that to other yards.
    That's dumb. You can go for years & years, generations- generations & never have to leave your yard but once or twice if that.
    It's a difference between some one who has bred dogs & a dog breeder. Big Difference & sad fact is that some are just dog owners trying to breed.
    Make your own dogs to go with your own. It's simple, easy, cost effective & time better spent. It teaches you more about what you feed than asking others about what you feed.


    Here's just 2 examples of showing what I did & not talking about what I think or worse talking about what someone else had done.
    Be the source & quit chasing the nock offs :
    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=427582
    & this http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=528665
    The 1st is Keeping as pure as possible & the 2nd is adding stuff as you go while maintaining the base.
     
    ziggy311, Jun 21, 2015
    #6
  7. Dream Pits

    Dream Pits CH Dog

    Breeding to someone else's dog that can improve your yard doesn't make you any less of a breeding. TG loved spike but went and got chinaman. What about when Boyles had went away from the boomerang blood and crossed in bolio? Queen of hearts? Even the source has to be able to recognize when the best option might be someone else's dog.
     
    Dream Pits, Jun 22, 2015
    #7
  8. BigTazz26

    BigTazz26 Big Dog

    BigTazz26, Jun 22, 2015
    #8
  9. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog

    Well said. I agree with this...
     
    corvettedex, Jun 22, 2015
    #9
  10. F.D.

    F.D. Top Dog

    I don't hold myself out as a great breeder by any means. But I have seen examples of people repeatedly going back to their own yards, when they should have opened their eyes and realized that their stock could use an upgrade. If you had access to a dog that really was the best of its breed or weight, etc, it would seem foolish not to use that dog to "up your game."
     
    F.D., Jun 22, 2015
    #10
  11. ShakaZ

    ShakaZ CH Dog

    Yes, that would be the out, but then, instead of "staying out" go back into your own stuff... At least that is what I think Zig Zag is saying.
     
    ShakaZ, Jun 22, 2015
    #11
  12. F.D.

    F.D. Top Dog

    Yea that makes sense.
     
    F.D., Jun 22, 2015
    #12
  13. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog


    Yes Sir that pretty much exactly it. And it's Spending more time seeing each dog work.
    When someone has a dog from your yard or with a fraction of it in there blood ,they would ask question not only about a single dogs performance but all aspects of the dog & the lineage.
    So to be honest with them & yourself , you need to know & see as many as you can .
    You can save others time & money by you own experiences with certain out crosses or certain inbreeding schemes .
    You won't lie to yourself as much as others will lie to you.
    Be the history not just the historian keeping history of what others did.
    No breeder breeds to see there name but to know each one of there dogs.
    And everyone doesn't all have the same likes, dislikes or even standards.
    So what one may like another may not..
    As you stated Shaka Z , go out back but come back into your own stuff.
     
    ziggy311, Jun 23, 2015
    #13
    culabula likes this.
  14. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog



    Understand what you are saying but in my opinion Shaka Z hit it on the head.
    But will like to ad more as example.
    Breeders always evaluate everything even more in my opinion because they stick to the family more than those just wanting a cross.
    I show my peds so much because big name are just big names and not all of the families or breeders in this breed of dogs are going to be house hold names.
    Most of the folks I have dealt with or not famous nor did they have famous dogs but they would & could beat famous dogs anytime @ anything.
    But breeding families can be done by everyone who desires there own family of dogs.
    I was taught how to establish & continue a family & only like to pass on the little knowledge I gained so others may save themselves time money & trouble.
    Everyone has to start from something & in time everything peeks itself out. But by using basic breeding tools no matter what you feed & what you like ,you can maintain that as long as you desire the same as the greats did. Colby, F.B, Hemphill , Sorrell's , Norrod's , Mayfield, Tudor , Heinzl & so on. To many too name them all.
    They All had there OWN FAMILIES" of dogs & @ some point for what ever reasons experimented with out crosses. But even though the had outcrossed , they still went back to & maintained there own individual families.
    I'm just passing not only what I had learned but have done in starting & maintaining your own family of dogs. In a decade or two most if not all of the Family breeders who were famous from the 20th century will have passed. Then is too late to start something you should have been working on.
    Anybody can form a bloodline re-guard less of who you are & what you start with just as good as any other family of dogs be it in the past or in the present.
    All you need is 3. If you feed @ least 3 dogs worth feeding & they have @ least 50% difference then you have so many variable combinations before you need to outcross it's crazy.
    And when you do max out the potential & find that they still lack in something , just get 2 more & restart the process.
    Only point really I trying to make. 20 yrs ago , before the internet came out took over, most people I knew weren't famous but yet more then had there own family of dogs seems like than these days.
    Just would like to see that again while I still feed dogs.
     
    ziggy311, Jun 23, 2015
    #14
  15. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Well said. Going off the yard to improve is a must in the very beginning. It can greatly increase the chances of improving what you have in the early stages. Going off the yard does not mean out-crossing, just finding the best available dog within your family of choice.


    There are more bad specimens to choose from than good ones so basic math says the odds get better if you broaden your selection pool and then go to the very best. Taking your best bitch to the best male you can afford/access is a proven method to get started. From their she can be bred to another 'top shelf' male from her family and breeding those half brother sisters to each other, to Uncles and Aunts and your 'family' has started.


    The odds of a person's first male being their best breeding option are very slim, maybe even slim to none.


    The "STUD" dog, or the Stud Service, is one of the reasons bulldogs get better over time or at the very least maintain a performing plane. Other breeds plane has been in a steady decline because most big time "SHOW" breeds do not take advantage of other people's successes. New owners buy from popular breeders/show winners and breed them together. Crossing dogs just to be breeding dogs/selling dogs. Most bulldog peddlers do the same. It cuts in to the puppy profits if a stud fee is paid.


    Going off the yard does not have to be an outcross. Same family just a different owner. And recognizing, and maybe even admitting that a male over there is a better option than the male I have right here is one of the best lessons a young breeder can learn. Sometimes that admission is difficult in itself.


    Another show breed tactic is to put a bunch of big name breeders in a pedigree vs. evaluating the dogs themselves for their traits and family traits. Sort of like a Garner dog bred to a Boudreaux dog bred to a Fat Bill dog bred to a Patrick dog bred to a Mims dog bred to a Sorrell's dog to a Maloney dog to a Tudor dog to a Carver dog.. In the show world that would carry weight but would never produce anything but more dogs, with the occasional nice dog, and a ton of also-rans.
     
    slim12, Jun 24, 2015
    #15
  16. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=390185


    This breeding is one I am really high on right now. The puppies are young and time will tell, I like their breeding as much as I do them. Basically it looks like a lot of names and bloodlines but a little digging shows a pretty good game plan (not all by me).

    The Mims Lucky dog produced a number of good dogs. Bringing her offspring from Spiffy and Jiggs is nice. Going out to the Eli/Chinaman/Frisco dog on the top is not that much of a stretch. The Mims dogs carry some of the Bolio blood, just as Frisco does. The Chinamman line and the Snooty line trace back to some common ancestors. On the bottom Mims Lucious brings the Snooty and bred to the Molly Bee dog (which by way of limited breedings is a lot of Snooty influence) and bringing that back to Spiffy/Lucky made the Boyd's Male dog (Skull, who won 4 going over 2 hours twice). That back to Bonnie and Bonnie's offspring being half-brother/half-sistered.


    At times it was a wide sweeping turn, but the turn got back to Snooty/Red Boy and Red Boy/Snooty dogs. Basically out and in bred to out and in. The kicker is the majority of theses dogs have the same traits and styles, compliment one another and then throw the same.


    In time it may land me on my ass, but I will get up and try it again. Time and history says it will work. S
     
    slim12, Jun 24, 2015
    #16
    culabula likes this.
  17. niko

    niko CH Dog

    Good posts guys
     
    niko, Jun 24, 2015
    #17
  18. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog


    Great info!
     
    ziggy311, Jun 24, 2015
    #18
  19. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog

    Once again great info with a great example of keeping a family pure as possible while still adding outcrosses to process.
    Well bred dog!
     
    ziggy311, Jun 24, 2015
    #19
  20. ziggy311

    ziggy311 Big Dog

    Just adding examples on what & why I breed certain dogs.
    Crossfire is the last of the pure before new outs. Even though he is line bred on "3" different families, Hicks ,Sorrells & Brown's (Alligator) , He is what I had considered "Peaked out" on performance, meaning the consistency is there & was for generations of using that same 3 crosses but wanted more out of the family still. Breeding more of the same only got more of the same.
    He became the New Foundation dog & #1 of the restart program.
    I picked 2 more bitches from 2 people I knew & off dogs that I had seen.
    Because of the quest to keep families pure I chose dogs from close to pure families to get the as much as the desired families traits as possible from them, but once again these weren't my 1st choices but choices based on personal knowledge of Parents.
    There is a process that I used to find & maintain the a well balanced dog, I found 3 good males in that litter & started re building the family in the same direction as before but with the short commings of the previous dogs taken.
    Now that they are in the blood, it's about fine tuning the family & using different % to find that sweet spot.
    No one should see nothing but 100% in anything if you want more out of everything. There's always room for improvement.
    Maybe a little more on the top or bottom or what ever.
    Just keep trying to make the next generation better than the last generation.
    Just Example of process I use to ad & rebuild my line.
    #1 http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=378432 , & Step #2 http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=456182


    After that step #3 is breeding to @ least a handle of different related bitches close to 50% Crossfire to find a New Base or foundation again.
    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=438364 , http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=438365 ,
    http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=528736 , http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=528738


    Who know's what will & won't turn out but it's a start in the right direction.
     
    ziggy311, Jun 24, 2015
    #20
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