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What line would you choose

Discussion in 'APBT Bloodlines' started by Indyred, Mar 7, 2014.

Page 4 of 7
  1. Rock n Rye

    Rock n Rye CH Dog

    I agree old friend, I was thinking how is upbringing the most important thing. If so, then dogs should come up living in shitty conditions barely any food or care within inches of their life. If they can be game enough to live through that upbringing then they should be game enough through anything. I understand I'm of the minority bc I don't believe they all will quit. Just as I believe in genes, bc if not why breed game dogs why not mix with Rottweilers shepherds or anything else.
     
    Rock n Rye, Mar 13, 2014
    #61
  2. NatureBoy

    NatureBoy Big Dog

    Lmfao.. That's your opinion and you are intitled to it. If you wanna start name calling you can hit me in the pm.
     
    NatureBoy, Mar 13, 2014
    #62
  3. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    I was fortunate to be blessed with some very game dogs, I've been witness to too many examples to even remember, for someone to say "they will all quit" or "they will all stop" is an insult to those who gave their all.
     
    benthere, Mar 13, 2014
    #63
  4. NatureBoy

    NatureBoy Big Dog

    If you think a dog that's neglected and not socialized is gonna work for you the same way a dog that has been socialized then you a missing something..
    He keeps coming cause you and him are a team.. If he feels isolated he gonna pull up.
     
    NatureBoy, Mar 13, 2014
    #64
  5. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    and the last thing i'm doing is "name calling" and it ain't an opinion if its the truth.
    truth is a few of these dogs have a will that can't be broken
     
    benthere, Mar 13, 2014
    #65
  6. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    you are right, he also keeps coming cause he's game, and he's game cause he was bred to be game...that's the way this game works
     
    benthere, Mar 13, 2014
    #66
  7. CajunBoulette

    CajunBoulette CH Dog

    If they kept coming because you and them were a team wouldn't be any that quit.

    Sincerely Yours, Cajun
     
    CajunBoulette, Mar 13, 2014
    #67
  8. Naustroms

    Naustroms CH Dog

    plenty of well socialized, well loved, best friend, family pets pull up and they didn't give a damn how much they were loved when they did it.
     
    Naustroms, Mar 13, 2014
    #68
  9. Naustroms

    Naustroms CH Dog

    Its a different thing when you actually see a high performance bulldog bred for what it is that it does. They're like thoroughbreds, they're not your normal dog. And until you witness the difference its like trying to have a discussion about why your farm horse and run with the thoroughbreds because you love it and give it high quality oats.
     
    Naustroms, Mar 13, 2014
    #69
  10. TDK

    TDK CH Dog Staff Member

    There are a few misconceptions in the current flow of this thread.

    First of all, dogs are born destined to be what they will be. Or should I say what they SHOULD be. You do not enhance gameness except to not screw the dog out of it by somehow ruining it. No....I don't want to have some poor, neglected dog and expect it to perform as those who have a dog's remedial sense of self worth. But the only enhancement, if you can call it that, is to not screw the dog out of what it is destined to be by messing it up.

    You are a stage setter, and your job, besides taking good care of the dog, is to learn the proper stages you set for it to school itself properly. If you can't, and don't know how, then you shouldn't be messing with them. And if you can't adjust those stages for any certain dog, should it be necessary, then it's DITTO.

    Again, you don't teach. You set proper stages for the dog to learn. You allow a dog to mature and go through these proper stages. It will be what it was born to be.


    "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you."
     
    TDK, Mar 13, 2014
    #70
  11. TDK

    TDK CH Dog Staff Member

    Benthere, good post. I've always said to those who say they will all quit, that the burden of proof is on them. There are dogs that DID NOT, and gave there absolute all, and you cannot bring them back to prove they would stop. Therefore, how can one say they will ALL quit when some did not.

    I can't prove they wouldn't, just that they didn't, but no one can prove they would have. Take things as realistically as you can. Blanket statements are often very leaky, and are often stated by those who have not seen enough things to open their minds.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2014
    TDK, Mar 13, 2014
    #71
  12. NatureBoy

    NatureBoy Big Dog

    Common sense bro... Higher Percentages
     
    NatureBoy, Mar 13, 2014
    #72
  13. NatureBoy

    NatureBoy Big Dog

    I can appreciate this statement..
     
    NatureBoy, Mar 13, 2014
    #73
  14. CajunBoulette

    CajunBoulette CH Dog

    No you linked upbringing and gameness. I'm asking if that's the case have all dogs that quit, quit because of upbringing?

    Sincerely Yours, Cajun
     
    CajunBoulette, Mar 13, 2014
    #74
  15. Dannyb

    Dannyb Big Dog

    I don't believe "love" or "socialization" will make a dog more or less capable of performing a certain task. Nutrition and environment do play a key role in devolopment.

    Dogs do have psycological issues though and they can either get hung up on something or bennefit from the impact. Wasn't it Mayday who walked around limping on a leg that was totally healed. The dog had to believe that it was healed and unlearn the affect of the disabled walk. We as humans play a crucial role in all aspects of what's going on in the dogs mind. I think it's a little bit more than "not messing it up". There are degrees or levels to how good or great a person is in shaping all aspects of a dog.

    Gameness isn't just some cut and dry on or off trait, in my opinion. A dog that expires in 90 seconds still having Its mouth on is considered dead game. However, a dog that drags itself on 4 broken limbs across at 3 hours 1 time but stands the line at 2 hours 5 minutes from death with it's head about to fall off is a cur? Can a dog exhibit a different level or degree of gameness on a different day under different conditions? I believe it can.

    There's degrees to gameness just like degrees to abilities or any other trait. And I do believe that human play a huge roll in helping a dog achieve or enhance those abilities for a specific task.
     
    Dannyb, Mar 13, 2014
    #75
  16. TDK

    TDK CH Dog Staff Member

    I don't believe anyone said that environment, care, feeding, and all other aspects of treatment of a dog have no bearing or effect on how the dog feels and acts in a general sense. Now, you said there is more to it than what I stated. Perhaps as it applies to OTHER aspects in a dog, but the issue was enhancing GAMENESS. And that being the issue, only, then no, there ISN'T more to it than what I said.

    I've long since outgrown the faux pas of LABELING dogs. They do what they do. Did what they did. It falls where it falls and a dog is either desirable to one, or it has fallen short of desirable. It's that simple. Keeps and care have more to do with capabilities and opportunities to excel, and not gameness.

    I have a little bit different version of gameness than most. I know others who agree but most have just never even thought of this aspect or ideal. I believe gameness to be an absolute. I don't believe it comes in degrees. It can and often is stated that way, but I believe it to be of another angle and truth.

    I believe what comes in degrees is how much short of this absolute a dog comes. The closest to game a dog can be, and still be among us, is presumed or highly possibly game. I never understood how one can call a dog some DEGREE game when it has quit. Closer to the absolute of gameness? Yes indeed. But that is what comes in degrees. How short of this absolute they are or have shown.

    Might dogs have on and/or off days? I'm sure they might. But sometimes that is a matter of style or other aspects and prowess of their opponent. Gameness is not abilities nor capabilities. It is the WILL TO DOMINATE, and the deeper and less yielding that will, the closer to game that dog is, should it still be with us.
     
    TDK, Mar 13, 2014
    #76
  17. NatureBoy

    NatureBoy Big Dog

    Great post!
     
    NatureBoy, Mar 13, 2014
    #77
  18. Rock n Rye

    Rock n Rye CH Dog

    Excellent post, from you and others as well. Great jobs.. I've been on this fence arguing is Gameness absolute with many a man over time and are there degrees of gameness.. What I have come to learn is people (which i'm one myself especially in my younger days) confuse Gameness with Prey Drive, just as we confuse ability and skill and stamina with gameness. I think what many people witness comes short of what gameness truly is, then question is what is the meter of gameness?? Then we get caught in the labels to communicate with each other, with pit game, which means he will fight that badger all night until he gets tired or some other reason and stand up but give him some time and he will go back. Or we use labels like honest, which means he has done what has been asked of him just short of scratching at death's door..I'm not one who thinks that a dog is dead game or rank cur, i have no idea what the gray area between is, but 8 out of 10 that's what seen by many because we have no global agreement on "gameness".. In my personal experiences I've seen more do better on conditioning then I can say they did on gameness..
     
    Rock n Rye, Mar 13, 2014
    #78
  19. Rock n Rye

    Rock n Rye CH Dog

    In the words of Tina Turner, "what's love got to do with it." LOLOLOL.. And there is a fool sitting somewhere not giving 2 shits about his dog not worming or properly caring for him but every time that sucker gets off the chain he bring home some chicken even though he could barely stand.
     
    Rock n Rye, Mar 13, 2014
    #79
  20. Indyred

    Indyred Pup

    I agree once you witness a truly game dog it is something you never foget. I still get goosebumps when I think of a little dog named Wago coming across, against all odds, with the crowd yelling "Let go my Wago".
     
    Indyred, Mar 13, 2014
    #80
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