People are talking about pure gene pools, let me show you a real pure dog

Burton's Tiger Dan

 

"" as we like them"""
Thank you i knew that other picture was bullyson ore ch stomper. let me show type trowback let me start of with Star and Tiger Dan




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here are Susan renee and CH Candy altho i do have mutch beter pictures in my argives to prove my point candy is a spitting image, of susan renee, i iven whent as far as digging in there historick behavier, and found out that candy had the same problem where she got more agresife when she got older. same thing happend with susan renee she had to be retired as she became overly agresif, chek her pedegree and see she is more bred on susan renee then alligator . hensh her trowback and her fantastic producing quality, her mouth like renee was unreal to picture of candy is when she was in shape obviusly susan renee was out and older in age..

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here you go grch midnight and Mayfields pit general

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breeding pure bred dogs is only as good as your abilety to be able to reconize and select the type of dogs that come out of your liiters of game bred dogs. and in what place you can put them in, meening a 25% alligator bred dog can in reality be a 75% trowback. pedegree in that case is just a paper gide line. hensh the rezen that Type and color and stijl should be taken in consideration when your breeding for a sirtin foundation in your famely of dogs

 

Probably my fav thread on here for a while, always like reading your stuff Limey and seeing your dogs.

 

Thanks 1985
.problem is that 90% of the dogman of today who call themselfs breeders are just plain novice and havend taken there time in studying the breed and its history.,

They look at a pedegree see 150 Mayfields Nigger ore Bolio ore jeep and think there dog is a purebred dog. Nothing could be feurther from the truth, people tent to forget that the more you stack those names the more you are inbreeding on dogs"" prior"" to these dogs ore ( and in some cases breed into trowbacks on the side lines)...

in other words you shoot ""past your goal!!!"" and acsept the other genes to pop forward(Mayfield line).

and ore get the gene pool withs is good but not what you wanted.
let me show you another aczample.
here is Limey Kennels king Gator http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=17481
here is limey kennels and siruis kennels Red Bull http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=326352
chek there peds both there mothers are litter sisters but one of them is a CH Spike animal the other one is a Tug(fox) Animal.
with the ecseption of two sisters as parends they have the same pedegree, YET they are light years apart.

king gator obviusly is the aligator nigger type of trowback. Red Bull is a petronellies fox/boomerang type of dog tru Tug Rom.
Both king gator and red Bull are very inbred dogs yet of diferend types and stijl!!.
and should be bred in a diferend way.
The fact that Red Bull hase a LOAD of Nelis rom and CH Spike in his pedegree thussend mean he is blessed with there gene pool. this needs to change your breeding program with sutch a animal .
the Nelis ROm CH Spike genes are in there for sure but to get them to the sirfes asks for a diferend aprotchs in selecting the right bitch!!!. and thats how it works..
Now im useing my own stu as aczamplef because thats familier , but it works the same with every famely and ore foundation dogs you breed on.
Please feel free to chim in with other bloodlines showing the same aczample. lets turn this topic into a seriues breeding famely topic. without the BS.

 

Just read an article in an Game dog Mag. back frm 1985 it was writin by Don Mayfield,
Always had tought of this to be an overlooked isue by some.
Great insight here Limey.

Thaks

 

Just Whoa.
Picture explains itself.

 

This is an excellent article that I found regarding this subject.

Using Color Type Selection...
By James Bond

Many times colour type selection has been overlooked in breeding game dogs,
especially in the USA where I went to visit big yards of dogs from 35 up to 250 dogs at
a time. It surprised me that only one or two men did this and they are legends in the
breeding of game dogs, these men are Floyd B. and Jerry C. Over
the years we have done the same and with great success, to say the least. If you have
lack of space or have a small genetic pool, then you can actually tighten up your
blood/family by selecting on type and colour. It is never a guarantee as game dogs
come in all colours and shapes, but for instance lets say you where breeding the
alligator line, and you only access to say 4 to 10 dogs, then I suggest you use this
technique to your breeding program. If I breed for Ch. Alligator blood then I want them
to look like him in every way, which means black coat, red eyes, long body and all the
other qualities this dog was known for. Now I was in the yard of Gary H. and he
showed me the purest Alligator dog he had, and to my surprise it was a buckskin and
white. Although i never said anything out of respect. To me this was a big shock. as I
found out that the Alligator breeders over there try to have as much Alligator or his son
(Rufus) shown in a pedigree, but they did not select on colour or type.

I realized that the purity of them families dropped by 40% in my mind, as they bred on
a paper %. I also realised why they could breed much tighter now than we could,
because they stack and pack various amounts of different dogs. With colours from
white to brindle, red to buckskin and black in to the genetic pool, the result is a great
diversity of different acting and looking dogs out of the same breeding. To my mind
this shows a lack of understanding in breeding dogs, they see it as a short cut if you
are able to keep 50/100/200 dogs . In the US they call this a breeding crap shoot,
which more or less confirms their way of thinking on breeding. Now, we have been
breeding better dogs % wise in this part of the world , probably because of lack of
space and could not afford to feed so many dogs or just had dogs that lacked quality.
We have all had are mother or auntie say - "Johnny boy you look and act like your
grand-father in every way". In theory you are only carrying 25% of your grand-fathers
gene pool, but in real life you could be a throw back to him and be carrying 75/80% of
his gene pool, and this how it works in the dogs. Too often people look at the pedigree
and not the dog, and breed such and so to such and so - because it looks good on
paper and yes then the outcome becomes like a crap shoot. If I breed for the Alligator
type of dog, the apple must fall near the tree, he doesn't have to be a duplicate. But
the one that resembles him the closest will join the breeding program. You might say
his buckskin brother is much better quality than him - why don't you use him?. My
answer to that, is a dog like that would be good for the box, but he definitely has a
genetic build up of dogs prior to Alligator. I am trying to base my breeding on his
colour type and quality, so you can see there is a difference between breeding stock
and brood stock. Of course the brood stock must be of the same quality as the stud
stock, this you do by weeding out the bad dogs and you will be left with a couple dogs
that resemble the original dog you are breeding for.

From this foundation stock, this is where your breeding really starts. And you will find
your breeding is a hell of a lot tighter, with less breeding needed and you are less
dependent on the name of a particular dog. This means that a dog that has Alligator 6
times in his pedigree is much tighter and purer than a dog that has Alligator in his
pedigree 12 or 15 times. Recognizing type and colour is a very unrecognized tool for
breeding good quality game dogs. Another example of of breeding good dogs, or
should I say a VERY good example is the Nigerino dogs. I am sure that most of you
know this dog, or have at least heard of him. Well take a look at his pedigree, he is
75% Eli Jr and 25% Gr Ch Art. From that Art blood, 50% is Eli too, meaning 50% of Art
is Claytons Java. And in the pedigree of Nigerino she is only 12 1/2 % present, but this
bitch had a phenomenal influence on Nigerino and Art was his grand daddy. Now Gr Ch
Art was red and won all his matches in short order. Some say he was blessed by the Eli
Jr style which is true to a certain extent I would say. But Nigerino got his ability, his
style, his colour and his conformation from Art. Now Nigerino was a prepotent dog and
produced lots and lots of dogs red in colour with black masks like he and Art had. All
the way down from Art to Nigerino his grandson who produced his son Red Rover, who
produced our bitch Rosey. They are red dogs with a blackish mask and perform in a
very quick way. If we start looking at the pedigree the dominant dog by far is Eli Jr, I
believe he is there 35 times. If she carries 5 times Gr Ch Nigerino/ Gr Ch Art, then yes
she is still an Eli Jr dog. Well nothing could be further from the truth, she is a complete
throwback to Gr Ch Nigerino and Gr Ch Art., and there you have your answer I guess.
Your questions and papers are inportant of course, but nothing is more inportant than
using the type and colour tool, if you are breeding for a certain dog.

 

eeeeuhhmmm Thats my articel!!!

 

I agree to certain points. Color is a good tell tale sign of gene pool. Throw backs are a great thing to me. The idea that you get them let's a guy know he' got straight forward blood. Limey is right in saying that you can't just pedigree stack. I know the lessons to that all too well. I would have a litter and THE WHOLE LITTER LOOKS IDENTICAL but then their attitudes couldn't be more different within a litter.

 

I was pretty sure that was yours article. But it said "by James Bond" so I was a little confused with that. In any case, excellent read!!! Thanks Limey!!!

 

And at the same time your blood needs to advance. If a breeder keeps getting THROWBACKS to dogs from FIFTY years ago then your not getting any better caliber dogs. Just your percentages go up I guess. You shouldn't want any triats from dogs fifty years ago besides gameness and winning.

 

This was the article i was talking about!

Mixed it up with a don M story i read in a game dog mag.

Much respect !

 

WHO,
Yes and no it took earl Tudor(mayfield) 40 years to see Tudors black jack come forward again in the likes of Mayfield pit general..

The aces of yesterday are still bij far superior as the dogs of today, Hensh we inbreed and line breed on these individuals.ore at least trie to do so, other wize we would breed best to best to get the best. unfortunatly it thussend work that way we both know that. It works the same with Greyhouds and race horses ecetera. only the pitbull terrier is bij far the purest bred animal in the world AND FOR A REZEN.

I hounestly belive that the dogs of yesterday from around the 70,s till the early 90,s where better dogs then wat i see today" "" with the ecseptions of a couple of old timer breeders , who bij now are out of the game ore very rare to be found"""".

Famely breeding in the last 15 ore 20 years hase gone douwn the drain. try to find a famely of dogs that hase one name behind it for 4 /5/6 ore 7 generations of tested dogs.
To manny dogs today have to manny diferend hands on them with diferend toughts and selection proseses in the likes of one mans game dog is another mans cur!!.

in the old days it was all about TRUTH proving your way and caracter that you put in a famely off dogs, YOUR truth had to come out!!. in the likes of your selection proses. no hiding there. it was comen that a intyer generation of one particulair famely met up against another. they where diferend times and diferend ways as wat we have seen in the last 20 to 30 years!!.

Dont think the evolution(if there is sutchs a thing) of the fichting dog is ore gose as rapit as you tent to belive.
again the aces of yesterday gave us a hint how far the dog could be in the future!!. I aim aware that altho type and color CAN give you a ege in your selection proses, but that caracter CAN be difernd AT FIRST. depending on your disire what you do ore dont whant to see in a famely of dogs
I also realize that you NEED to leave room for mental diversety, otherwize we get in trouble.

One line i remember (forgot witch dogman of the past said it) is If your looking at a cattle rancher who bases his cattle on one prize bull you are looking at a cattle rancher soon to be out of bisenis!!!.

and yes your pecentige is going up!, because you reduce genetic variation witchs on its self can also be very dangeres as you can create a static famely of dogs.

But beside that in time when everyting cose a bit to plan, that outstanding dog ore producer wil come along and you start to breed of him again, and keep repeating it for as long as your able to fool around with these dogs.ore when sombody els is smart enoughf to be able to take the flag over and do his bit.

last but not least to come back at my evolution remark.. a man i used to be frinds with told me there is no evolution nor mutation, i said what!! ofcours there is . he said wel SHOW me somthing that hase been evolved show me!!!!!!! wel I cant you cant nobody can!!,
He also said you CANT get something out of a living gene pool that hasend alredy been in there in the first place!!. in other words there is no mutation.
And if you ever get a ace dog those genes have ALWAY been in the there you where just able bij wisdom ore luck to bring that out to the sirfis...!!!! Now aint that a piece of food for brain:cool:, because that meens the dogs of yesterday where Beter and i belive that , but thats another story..... PS Elmo thanks for the comp

 

i have had a friend (he passed away last yr) that use to breed rats with basically the same formula and he would recreate relatives colors and markings that the gens of the past had to the T. not sure how to apply this to that, but i seen it with my own eyes.

 

i wonder whats the reason behind the higher % of good dogs in the past.
Is it just the fact that there was more freedom to keep these dogs, in which case made it more posible to start good breedingprogram ?
Is the standard not as high as it use to be ?

Ne one ?

 

old timers say it was better then, people from the 80's-90's say thats when it was the best and youg doggers say that the dogs of today are the best. Depends on if ur asking Lou or Alfred.
Great thread tho Limey, haven't had many like this as of late.

 

Hello,
please, tell me,this dog in the photos, in its phenotype has similarities to with any blood line? If - yes, on what exactly the dogs?
Thank you in advance.