What Has The Breed Become?

Most of these self proclaimed preservationist cant stomach the dogs original purpose anyways... but they are still keeping the breed true some how :confused:

 

Thanks everyone for their responses so far. Sorry if the posts are long but I think it is important to address each issue and not loose clarity in the overall responses or context.

Louis Colby – “While a dog may become a pit champion by defeating three mediocre dogs, and be himself a very mediocre dog of questionable gameness, in the sport of weight pulling the dog will always come up against an opponent (the weight) that is unvarying in quality. (Colby’s Book Of The American Pit Bull Terrier p. 57)

I think the difference is in our perspective of what Colby said and is it in a figurative or literal perspective. Form a literal perspective I think he was saying weight pull is a method of game testing he however must have been referring to a different kind of “game” other than “fight” game.

From a figurative perspective of training dogs for “fight” game I can follow your point but I think in this you have to admit such training helps to understand at least a few aspects that make up a “fight game crazy” dog that also has the proof, ability and will to back it up.

The point that makes a figurative viewpoint possible however is contradicted by Colby’s statement that you cannot train a dog to be game. “There is absolutely nothing you can do to an individual after it is hatched, whelped or born to make it game…………..there is absolutely nothing you can do to change its mind…..it is born and bred into ‘em.” (Colby’s Book Of The American Pit Bull Terrier p. 55-57)

To reconcile this point in a figurative manner I need to assume that Colby was not talking about a “fighting” game when referring to weight pulling but game in another capacity or that he was merely speaking on how it helped a dog come to his best potential in some of the aspects of fighting game. Basically bringing the dog to its peak physical and/or mental ability in one or more aspects of “fight” game in a way that it would meet its full potential in the fight if that is where the dog found itself.

Based on the previous point I think anyone who is active in promoting the peak physical working ability of their dog has a right to have pride in such accomplishments. Even the true underground dog man wants his dog in the most optimal condition possible. I think any such dog man that truly honors his dogs would also say one would be foolhardy to “fight” game test their dog if it was not in the best possible condition.

If your goal is to “fight” game check then I agree there is no other way to do this other than through fighting. If you and most other owners are not worried about “fight” game testing and would however like to take pride in the breed at its peak physical abilities why should the overwhelming vast majority of regular every day owners not take pride in such accomplishments in other ways?

When you say “you” I am assuming you mean anyone and not me specifically. In general it is first important to recognize the differences and vagueness of the term game. You are speaking to “fight” game and I have already conceded that there is only one way to test “fight” game. For those that can take pride in their dogs individual athletic prowess and how this relates to specific traits of game I think those that were active owners would take the information they learn through experience and work to improve on these abilities through their subsequent breedings. Those that met the standards desired in the breeding would be kept and bred to produce better working examples and others would be relegated to the general population where their current place is. Performing breeders would be in greater demand and proven stock would command greater value and profits.

To be fair it must be understood that the majority of people are not nor will they ever be an active or working breeder. Those that are should be held up as positive examples for others to follow. The goal of American Super Dog is to help generate pride in ownership through promotion of working activities that brings the dog to its optimal abilities and to provide resources to individuals to help them be a greater part in the working dog community through training, participation and education.

I do not typically respond to such posts but I had to interject some humor and say that would be defined as a game horse under some people’s standards.

Please read the first response to JamesT’s quote above.

I understand and agree.

That is not really a realistic approach. I doubt there will be a run on the Mexican border anytime soon. Can’t you just imagine the media story. ---Mexican government struggles with illegal American immigration while pro-dog fighters welcome them with open arms as mariachi bands sing songs of how they will bring prosperity to the community through economic stimulation.

So you are not leaving the country for all the luxury a 3 <SUP>rd</SUP> world nation offers? To bask in the opulence of outdoor plumbing and raw sewage canals? Do you think there is opportunity in taking pride in the breed’s other physical abilities beyond the fight pit such as weight pull. I agree my original posts supports and subsequent posts back up my thought that Conformation alone is definitely not a good deal for any working breed. Conformation without being able to meet that breeds working standard is contradictory to a dog’s well being regardless of breed.

I see your contention in this statement as I firmly believe as a breed the game style Pit Bull is going to be more game than any other breed in existence. I believe the breed as a whole regardless of name choice is the most athletic in mind, body and spirit of any breed.

The breed itself had many original purposes not just one. In the best game strain less than 10% would ever even be game enough to meet your or garths fighting game standard. The other 90% had other uses and value in culture and society as they still do today. One of the values I think owners have had forever is pride. While it may be impossible in most places to keep the same kind of game pride that you are referring to it is also important to recognize the 90% plus of others who have contributed as positive historic role models for the breed and have value in a pride beyond game pride.

While it would be revisionist history to deny the breeds part in the most game test possible it is also revisionist to deny the other 90%. Examples of this are common throughout society today as well. In some cases I think these trends are harmful primarily when it moves a breed of any kind from a working to a strictly show/beauty pageant standard. I think this movement has a dramatic negative health impact on the breed as a whole. But others I think are positive such as working dogs in Weight Pull and many other activities in a way that shows them at their peek potential athletic ability.

 

I think that on THIS board, MOST are of the opinion that the breed is meant for only one thing and if you aren't promoting the breed from THAT perspective, you really shouldn't even HAVE them.

I think your cause is a losing one HERE, Super Dog.

Dreamer

 

You must have plenty of time to spare with your post's.

 

Da fuck is thisnguy talkin about, fight game? Game is not just a "cool" adjective to describe a physically perfected dog with alot of drive and will. To even compare these two is a offense to the true game dogs that once proved themselves in the pit. A game dog dosn't have to be in good shape, it can be an overweight coach-potato but it would "stratch into a mack truck" as the saying goes.

There is only ONE type of game. What your talking about qre good qualities that you should take pride in, because that is obviously very important to you. BUT IT IS NOT GAMENESS!

So, please don't degrade the memory of true game dogs that really proved there worth by calling some weightpulling, high-jumping cur game!

 

Everyone who has responeded to this post understands and appreciates what you are attempting to do (and saying).However, the reality is the real APBT is bred for a purpose like other working breeds. There is only one way to measure the desired trait you are breeding for - please heed the advice from the members of this board, it has been simply stated numerous times in this thread. I will put another point simply for you to - whilst matching dogs is illegal game dogs will survive in way or another. On another note you seem pretty genuine from your posts but I'm not convinced.

 

American Super Dog..I don't really see what your getting at because i have a hard time looking at these dogs in the same perspective as you.When talking about the APBT there is only one kind of game,there is no "fight" game or "weight pull game"..The dog has either proven himself game,or he hasn't ,and there's only one way to find out.Why don't you just drop the whole game subject and carry on using words like determination,or drive,or anything besides "game".I think it would suite the activities that you,and your dog are participating in better.

 

The breed itself had many original purposes not just one. In the best game strain less than 10% would ever even be game enough to meet your or garths fighting game standard. The other 90% had other uses and value in culture and society as they still do today. One of the values I think owners have had forever is pride. While it may be impossible in most places to keep the same kind of game pride that you are referring to it is also important to recognize the 90% plus of others who have contributed as positive historic role models for the breed and have value in a pride beyond game pride.

Its like saying it is important to reconize bird dogs that are gun shy... just because a bunch of people own and breed their balls off for whatever reason. It would be like me owning a subpar bird dog and saying, hey! he has many other purposes ya know? Doesnt matter if hes gun shy! NO lol The dog is suppose to be able to do the job intented... and if that job was not in mind when breeding then we are talking dogs that are going in two totally different directions... hence the distinction between Apbt and amstaff.

 

American Super Dog I don't live in the US.I live in two countrys,Fishhook is where I was bred an born,an the sport of matching dogs is illegal hell man theres a $1ooo fine per pup if they catch you with an illegal litter.My other home the sport is legal both have proper waste systems,there for no RAW SEWAGE GUTTERS.If you really belive in what you wrote then fine but these dogs were bred for one thing matching in the pit against another dog and the gamest dogs were bred it's just that simple.You will not change my mind nor any one else on this subject.Have a great day.

 

this is one of the most taken out of context statements ever. most people when refering to this only use part of the quote, leaving out the most important part, the precursor, of which i will paraphrase... " in today's society, where matching dogs is illegal, the next best way to test test for gameness is..."

 

Thank you RR for clearing that up.
American Super Dog, You may mean well but putting these dogs on TV but I feel this will only hurt the breed. People will buy whatever they want but will they spend the money and time to research what they are buying?

Lets say a family see's your show and wants to get one:
If I say I have dogs that are well bred, come from an exceptional family of dogs(got the papers to prove it), smart as can be, even trained both to bring me beer out of the fridge and close the doors afterwards and count through barks when I call out a number, but the pups are going to cost you $1,000. Now they will say we'll think about it, blah blah blah....they aren't coming back.
Now they are on thier way home and someone sitting in wal-mart parking lot is selling pitbull puppies. You don't know how their bred (even if you did, not like you would know), you see the female but you don't interact with her, the people talk of how the male is a champion dog (this and that) and there only $100.
Which do you think there going to buy?

There is only 1 true way to test a dog for gameness and not just a want to go because the owner is wanting them to go. I'm talking about that deep, true game dog that even with 4 flat tires, it's screaming to get out of the corner. Even if it has to crawl on it's belly to get their. That is gameness! You ain't going to find that in a dog pulling 500+ lb. There is no comparison.

 

Rally,i don't feel that i took it out of context because he failed to quote the complete statement that colby made.I simply replied to what he posted.

Even with you filling in the incomplete statement i would still say the same thing.""in today's society,where matching dogs is illegal,the next best way to test gamness is"" ??Weight pulling? I would still disagree, i would still say there is only one way,and you know what that is.Now if there for some reason just had to be another way,i would say some form of hunting maybe coyotes ,or hogs,would be closer than weights.And i still don't believe that in most cases hunting even scratches the surface of a game test.

 

i agree JT. i havent found a wild critter around here that is even worthy of mentioning when discussing if a dog is game or not

 

for further clarification- it was not you i was saying that was taking the statement out of context, but the OP.
but in your own take you are still failing to see the point Mr.Colby was making- the best way to legally come close to proving gameness in his opinion, is weight pull due to the fact that there are no variables, only constants.

 

Oh ok my bad rally.I do see his point, i just think its ridiculous,and i highly disagree with it lol.

 

but if you sit back and really look at it-it makes perfect sense.
my personal take on his statement:
bulldogs are bulldogs, and love what they do-that much is perfectly understood and we can all agree on it. today, it is against the law to let them partake in such activities. so what is a man to do? sure you could hunt (if it is legal in your area)- but even that is a crapshoot, not all wild game is going to react the same as a bulldog would. its different to fight because you like it, than to fight to merely survive.
the way is read it is that with weight pull the ~opponent~ is a constant- a cart, weight, distance and time. this could infact be the best legal measuring stick going. is it the same as a ~true~ game test? of course not, the cart doesnt fight back. but for the common everyday man, from city or country, the opponent is there and unwavering, and wont get you locked up.
and quite simply - the old days are gone, not coming back- that is what i personally get from that statement

 

Yea i agree,that's perfectly fine,and its good clean fun for those that enjoy it.Just as long as they don't go around saying its a way to game check them,or that the dog is game because he can pull weight,then i have no discrepancy's with it.That's basically all im getting at.

 

I think you just need to leave the word "game" and trying to "test" for it out of any discussion of other activities you do with the dogs....

As for competitive weight-pulling, in my opinion, it is a terrible breed "test". Way too much room for abuse and it is an activity where you truly can force a dog to do it (think training methods you don't see at the pulls -- watch the dogs on the track and you can figure it out). An appropriate breed test is something the dog absolutely enjoys and can't get enough of....think of the Border Collie and his sheep, a good Malinois and his bad guy, the Chesapeake and his icy lake, etc --

You tell ME about what kind of attitude you see from many of the dogs at many competitive weight pulls.....it's a forced, artificial activity for these dogs and has no relationship to what the breed was historically used for.

Do your competitive weight-pulling, but don't say a good competitive weight-puller says anything about being a good Pit Bull. IMO.

I see much more desire and "Pit Bull-ness" out of dogs that are performing agility, doing an endurance run or running a sprint, grabbing a hold of something and hanging on -- activities that are more breed-appropriate and test/use qualities the breed is/was known for.

Dreamer

 

The genetics are there, so the tests of athleticism are for what? The dogs are natural athletes even if they're curs. Most would probably agree, the traits that enable the dog to be a superb athelete are not as elusive as the ones that make a dog game. This can be seen as its numerous breeds and dogs that compete in these events that would not be game in that context.

 

Number One. I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVE GAMENESS. Period. I said it in my last post too.

It's an idea for an event that us cur owners could do that takes into account some of the qualities the breed is known for. Can we do that?

Dreamer