Need perspective

You all have a tremendous amount of experience, and I have a deep respect for it. I need some perspective on 2 recent incidents with our dog.

We've had our dog since she was 3 months old, and she's now almost 2. We did basic obedience training when she was a pup and still practice everyday. She is a housedog.

There is a Rottweiler next door that she barks at through the fence. They cannot touch each other as there is secondary containment on the Rottweiler's side. When we call our dog inside, she's usually pretty good about coming in - we've never had to pull her away. Tonight I was standing next to her when she was barking, and I grabbed her by the collar and she re-directed. Before you picture too much, there was no skin breakage, or even a scratch. There was no pain either, I just felt teeth one time. I wasn't scared, it was more of a WTF moment, as it were. I never felt threatened or unsafe. She has never shown any human aggression.

The other event was during play. A soccer sock is the lure on her flirt pole and after she gets it, we play a little tug. Well, genius dog likes to grab hold right next to your hand, and will re-position as necessary to get the hold adjacent to your hand. My thumb got caught in her mouth with her sock, and it took a few of my OWWs and some effort to get my thumb out of her mouth. No skin breakage, or scratches, just a temporary indentation. I never felt like I was going to lose my finger, but I felt like the dog should have realized she needed to let go sooner. My wife says that from a third person perspective, she didn't realize something was wrong, saying that there wasnt distress in my voice.

Both of these events really shocked me. I know that there is a wealth of knowledge and experience here, so I'd like to hear your thoughts, and any experiences that you would like to share.

Thanks in advance.

 

Hello Ryan and welcome to the site. Let me just tell you that you have a APBT. They are DA, it is what it is. Hemi has bitten me on several occasion as he gets worked up if he sees another dog. That is why it is imperitive me keep them separated. These dog or let me say real APBT don't have friends just owners. Even if you have two in the same household you should never trust them alone so would that be called a friend? Lol.. Nothing you mentioned I would be to alarmed or not I would just not go there with the rottie around. I promise you it is gonna get worse before it gets better. Good luck and God bless...B

 

I would also suggest you have your own secondary containment system. Don't depend on your neighbor to keep the dogs apart, I understand there is a fence but you can never be to careful.

Redirection happens, just be careful and don't set your dog up to fail. I don't believe any amount of HA is tolerable, It didn't happen to me so I can't judge the situation properly.

 

I have had similar incidents. I'll avoid being PC here. How about a correction after the first "Owww" command? If your wife didn't notice distress, your dog may not have noticed either. A slap on the rear and a stern "BE GENTLE" may not go astray. If I slap my dog on the bum he acts as though the world has fallen on him- no need for firmer correction.

Redirected aggression should not be tolerated. This breed is not meant to turn at people when agitated, there has been strong selection against human-aggression and redirected aggression. That's why you had a "WTF moment" as you called it.

 

It don't sound too serious,the redirecting ain't good but she didn't go through and bite you,so a little discipline might do the trick.The flirt pole incident sounds like an accident,I had an accident with one of my dogs awhile back.He grabbed a stupid goat that wandered through his chain space and it was a time that I didn't have a breaking stick with me.I tried prying his mouth open and my finger got into the corner of his mouth,gashed it open and cracked my finger.It took me forever to pull all the goat hair out that was embedded in there,lol.So,even accidents can be painful.Definetly make sure the dogs can't get together,everything ought to be fine,if your careful.

 

Good thoughts g32!

I've been nipped once by Begonia, whilst playing with the flirt pole, neither one was intentional. She was puppy biting, learning how to adjust her grip as dogs do... I had reached down to grab the toy while she was adjusting, and in the process of it she got a little bit of my hand in there. I gave her a loud "Owww!" and she immediately backed up and sat. It was a greenhorn mistake, I know. Since then we've been working on "Sit! - Let Go! - Stay!" while playing flirt pole and spring pole, and it works very well. She's gripping, I get her attention, she sits when I tell her, she lets go when I tell her, and she stays... Her reward is more time with the pole. She loves it. It translates into me being able to separate her from anything she grabs in the house, like something from the kitchen like a spatula or something like that, or one of the wife's bras LOL whatever I don't want her to have, she comes running past me with it, strutting around and I give her a "Hey! Sit! Let go!..." and she sits and drops it. I have NOT had to use this outside, though, I don't know necessarily that she'd do that if she had a hold of a bunny or another dog. So I keep the breaking stick handy ;-)

She has never bitten me intentionally, or via redirection either. If she's lunging, I give her a firm tug on the leash and a low growl, and she *MOST OF THE TIME* backs up, still lunging but backing up and she will sit if I say it firmly enough.

Anyway, I agree with what the folks above said. A firm smack on the rear, or a firm tap under the chin and a "NO!" or "OWW!" -IMHO those words all mean the same thing to a dog, its the tone of it and the intent behind it that matters though others may disagree based on their own experience and that's cool.

If your dog means to bite you intentionally, you'll know it, there won't be any doubts. Right now, I advise you do as they stated above, and also, work in the abrupt "Sit, Let Go!, Stay" routine during play time, with the goal of managing *as much* of this drive as you can. If you can harness that drive, even just a little bit, you'll have a leg up at least, in encounters with other dogs *most of the time (as, some pits are just really hot, and those pits, you have to keep them away from other dogs at all times).

As always, JMHOs... Cheers and good luck

 

what ya mean hemi has bitten you several times? apbt's biting people is a huge problem, and Im sure accidents happen, just be smart about it.

 

maybe shouldnt have said bit (nipped) but if a gbd gets excited sometimes they will do what they can to get what they want.

 

wow, i may differ in opinion on this one...i now have a dog that id bet gets as DA and excited as the next(if not more), and ive never in the past had a dog of my own redirect towards me, nor would i EVER tolerate it. id be fixing that problem NOW! small incidents become large problems if they remain unchecked

 

I definitely think the redirection problem needs fixed,if a little "lesson" does it then that's ok,if not then you got to do what you got to do,I guess.The flirt pole I could see as being a legitimate accident though.

 

Well my opinion HA is taboo! And I aint gonna tolerate it! Now if you are hurting me or my kid and my dog bites you well that's your fault! But in a situation as you described I'd be dealing with that dog asap! As stated before the small problems not corrected can become quit large!

 

imo, what the op described was not HA. Some dogs are focused enough and can tell the difference between being handled and something else. Many, though, are spazzes and their excitement boils over. Sounds like she didn't realize that the touch was coming from Ryan at first and when she did, she was fine. I'd bet that if he'd grab her collar several more times while she's being DA, she'd learn and be conscious that she could be handled at anytime while even in that state of mind.

Now if she had real HA, that would be different. I dont think these dogs should have to be trained away from HA. if HA, shouldn't be bred. simple as that

 

Agreed - there are more dogs than we would like that will do this and it is accepted. I think it is possible that the same dog that will do this may never think of doing it in another situation, but it is still an unacceptable trait that should be steered clear of IMO. That said, you can still get bitten by a good dog if you are careless and get your hand in the wrong place(right gh? ) Of course, if you know your dog, are comfortable handling it, and it won't become someone else's problem, I guess that is your right.

 

My dog knows the moment his teeth come in contact with my skin and on the rare occasions that he causes me some pain, he reacts to my reaction immediately by releasing, and going straight to submissive mode. The fact that your dog caused you pain in play is common but the redirection incident I wouldn't tolerate.


I guess my perspective is that mistakes happen, so communicate it and expect the appropriate response. In other words, if your playing rough, expect to have small incidents but let he dog know and expect a submissive responce. The doggie equivalent of "sorry dad". The stronger your communication, the stronger his responce should be. If I yell and lean in to the dog with "BAD!", he will cower down and quiver. If I just say "oww", he'll back off and restart his play.


On the other hand, I wouldn't tolerate redirection from my house pet and if tolerated it's probably step 1 to a situation that might take years to evolve but will almost certainly have a bad ending. Next time you find your self in a similar situation, you should anticipate the redirection and be ready to reply with a harsh verbal correction and a physical posture that states your not going to tolerate it.


I personally don't need to use physical corrections with my dog, I use body langue and the tone of my voice to threaten him with in an inch of his life though... I will also walk stright in to him if I'm making a correction that expects him to move. For example, I'll catch him stealing some cat food, so I'll give a correction and if he dosn't move, I get up and march in to him. In your case, your asking him to get away from the fence, he isn't moving or probably even paying attention to your demand and needs a correction...


This fence rage situation has trigged and is adding to your issue. Nip that promptly, by moving your dog to the other side of the yard if possible. I'd also counter this negitive dog/dog situation with some well coordinated and supervised socialization.


I personally would anticipate any APBT becoming dog aggressive but there are tons of examples of this not having to be the case. I'd blame the neighbor for this one and with super caution, test the waters for signs outside of that situation for dog aggressive tendencies.

Just my .02, to each his/her own.

 

Yeah, I think with certain dogs, once they are escalated and really fired up, physical correction will be useless and only serve to create more excitement/reaction. A verbal correction may be more effective as you mentioned or just calmly moving the dog will probably be more useful in lowering the intensity so they can actually respond. Of course, they are all different...

 

I have had several times when my hand or arm ended up in one of my dogs mouths. The only one who doesnt stop before I say so is my lab mix. The others always notice who they have in their mouth and stop.

For example here are some different experiences with just one of my dogs. . .

Mush and I play tug with his leash. I hold it up above my head and he jumps, grabs and drops to a tug with it. When we do this on occasion he will miss the leash. He grabs the leash hard when he gets it. But, he is aware of himself and me enough to know that my skin is not rope. He has never punctured or even indented my skin.

He is so aware of my hands and arms and unwilling to bite me if I REALLY want him to drop something and he's being a jerk. I will put my hands or fingers in his mouth. The moment he feels my skin he opens wide.

Even in times of DA insanity this has proven true. If he is freaking out, clawing, growling, lunging, barking etc over another dog he gets pretty heated. At our last show we were in the judges choice ring the second day and it was VERY crowded. He barely had room to walk out. As I tried to walk him out of the corner he lunged at a dog near him. I KNEW he could reach her and so instinctively I put myself there. I twisted his leash so I was between him and this dog. As he lunged and snapped he found my pant drawstrings in his mouth. He immediately let go. He did not continue to lung or bite me. . .although some "spectators" may have thought they saw something different. . . He knew my clothes and therefor me was in his mouth. And, he knows this is NOT acceptable.

 

Not really on the same line as what you guys are talking about but my dog "bit" me once. I was holding his frisbee up over my head and asked him to jump and grab it. Well be jumped above the frisbee and on the way down he went for it. Put his tooth straight through my ring finger. He let go immediately landed and ran clear across the yard. I knew he didn't mean to do it so I didn't get mad. Bandaged it up and all was well.

 

i was just curious, did you make the dog aware of your presence before you touched her? as was said before if you just walked up and grabbed her she probably didn't realize it was you. i've been that careless just once. i've also had a finger nip or two during the game of tug. they try to get a better hold and miss. that's an accident and i doubt she meant to do it. i have a male who gets wound up pretty good and i make sure he is well aware where i am. i always say his name, and if that doesn't work i change the tone in my voice to the hey ahole you better look at me tone. as soon as he looks at me and lets me know he's aware of me then i walk up and grab him. if she did know you were there, then let her know she better be aware that your presence matters and you should be free to do as you wish to her. she won't make it better by herself, that's all on you. good luck.

 

everyone here knows how worked up these dogs can get. i have never been bitten but im sure it'll happen someday. I you have to understand how they are and make sure not to set yourself or your dog up for failure. i have had dogs rediract anger or frustration on each other but never on me but thats jut my experience. Dont trust a fench to keep ur dog in... never seen ya dog but i have never owned an apbt that couldnt jump a fench in their sleep. when eve gets worked up and runs at the fench she is literally 3 or 4 feet at least higher than the top of the fench. so i cant let her free back there if im not around to play with her or she will end up in a neigghbors yard playin with their doggie and we will have another bad story posted on this site.

 

All,

Thank you very much for your responses - they're much appreciated. I recognize the importance of not only seeking guidance from experts, but putting aside your ego and being receptive to feedback, both positive and negative. So thank you.

My wife and are I are putting up second containment this weekend, and closely supervising the dog when she's outside until the containment is up. You are definitely right about setting up our own secondary containment system. We're going to work with the neighbor to see what he used because his system is pretty effective. Our dog is not a jumper as she's a tad short in the front, so her jumping ability is probably less than what it would be as if she was conformationally correct. The fence is 7 feet high.

As for the play incident, I have let her mouth my hands a few times during play to get her to understand what is too much pressure, and that a yelp means she's too rough. She is very sensitive overall to us, and this is progressing well.

Since the re-direction incident, my wife and I have gotten her off the fence verbally via our "Inside" command. I have also nudged her with my leg while she was barking at the fence, and she has not re-directed. She is pretty worked up when she comes off so I go for some obedience training right away to calm her down, even though her first inclinations are roughhousing and flirt pole/tug. I think the key thing here is to re-focus her energy on either play, or obedience training. I'm pursuing obedience training for now (Sit, Inside, and Wait), but I'm also curious to see how re-directing her into flirt pole works. I'll be keeping a close eye on re-direction no doubt.

Two side notes
I told a good friend about the re-direction incident, and I mentioned this forum, and she responded with "anybody can post on the net, seek a professional trainer," etc. I then explained that I thought the members here probably had just as much experience if not more than most "professionals".

On the second note, my wife and I were walking the dog, and a guy and girl pulled up in a car and asked what type of pit bull Sis is, and I asked what he meant. He said "blue nose, red nose..." to which I replied, "oh she's just a regular, standard type, nothing special." I was surprised as our dog is tan with a black nose. I then told him that those are just colors, and that it's not a type of pit bull. I know it's not the first time you've heard a story like this, but I thought I'd share.

All the best, and thank you again for sharing your knowledge and experiences.