Hypocrisy or not ?

Is it possible to hate the dogman but love and own the dog he created without being a hypocrit ?

In my honest opinion I do not think it is possible to hate the man for creating the breed I own and cherrish. For if it were not for the dogman I would not own my dog so I how could I own something from someone who I despise and hate without becoming a hypocrit in the process ?

There are some people who think differently and I am just wondering how that is possible.

I would love to hear from both sides on this subject, all I ask is please keep it about the question and not about the person asking or answering it.

Thank you.

 

I certainly think it's possible to abhor "dog fighting" while still appreciating it's influence on the breed. Hypocritical? Perhaps, but that is how a large segment of pit bull owners feel.

It's when fellow owners try to deny just who and what gave them the dogs they own and love today that I start to get a little heated; although I try to chalk it up to inexperience and AR propaganda.

Besides, some of the "old timers" would roll over in their graves if you tried to give them credit for some of the crap being produced today.

 

I voted yes.

 

I've had (retired) dogmen tell me straight up that the average "dogman" is a less than savory character.

I love the best examples of the dogs, but some of the excesses, the drug abuse, ect ect that goes on in "the game" isn't the sort of thing any rational person celebrates.


When you've got a highly illegal bloodsport on which a lot of money is gambled its not going to attract the best people. And I've read enough old match reports and talked to enough people to know that the dogs are in fact very often treated pretty damn poorly.


I was once talking to someone about "dogmen" who would not pick their dog up even when it was obvious the match was lost and the person said "well, thats on them".

In reality its on the dog. I think if it were legal with vets at pitside and due to being legal had more people involved to who that matters to then you might have a different scene.



But hating everyone who's ever matched a dog? No, I do NOT feel that way by a long shot so I'd argue that the question is a little bit of an either/or fallacy. The question suggest that one either has to approve of and enjoy dog matching or else be an implacable enemey of it. I've even read accounts of old time dogmen being very disturbed by things they saw and having doubts about the morality of it. I doubt they were fans of the HSUS/PETA though.

There seems to be an attempt by some on the boards from time to time to suggest that one either embraces dogmatching with all its excesses and distasteful aspects or one is a supporter of PETA. That point of view is completely bogus.

And it wouldn't be the first case of something ugly producing beauty, that just shows the greatness of God.


But I've read too many old stories about really evil stuff going on to have a romanticized view of it. And everything I've heard or read as well as logic would indicate that the game is dirtier than ever.

 

I am on the fence. Don't know if I can answer with the options given. No matter how long I've been in the breed, I learn and adapt everyday. Present status being that I've learned enough to know that there is no black & white.

I don't hate the dogman. I do love the dog. However, at the same time, I do find the sport itself repugnant enough to want to stay away from it, and that's not solely because it is illegal. In an off-handed way, I can understand that some old-heads would believe that matching is the best way to preserve the breed. But on the other hand, I see no reason to support the modern-day incarnation of the sport when day after day people get taken down because of it. I can accept the history as relevant to the dog today -- and I do read the old stories with a certain amount of interest. But viewing those things as the past and not the present is the most comfortable way for me to accept them.

So at best, maybe I'm neutral. I do find it hypocritical to support the prosecution of dogmen while at the same time using their dogs (or another dogman's dogs) in one's program. However, I can't hold it against someone if they love the breed but hate how it was forged. Dog fighting is bloody and brutal, no way around it. The same people who are okay with boxing or MMA are appalled at seeing two dogs fight, or sometimes at merely the thought of two dogs fighting. That's not something that's going to change. And while most dogmen are trying to keep the game out of the public's eye, there are always a few who are happy to promote it, and then of course the organizations who "expose" it. (And when they "expose" it, who do you think they're more likely to find? The way-down-deep old-school dogman doing it the "right" way, or the self-promoting dogger who does it for status and wants others to at least suspect he's involved in it?)

So yes, maybe it is a little hypocritical to hate dogmen while loving the APBT. But there's no way anyone will convince the majority of dog lovers (even the majority of APBT owners) that it's necessary to accept the game if you love the dog. Even those who have a romanticized or desensitized view on it don't necessarily want to see it happening right in front of them. And the rest are spoon-fed such imagery that it's almost guaranteed they're going to view dogmen as bloodthirsty, drunk, greedy savages who get rich on the blood of their dogs.

 

i do npt hate them and there are some who irespect very much but as in life there were probably a lot of scum bags involved. and truthfully i believe thatwhenb it was legal it was the best and only way i also agree that if it was legal the dogs would be better off and get the care they need, but at the same time if you do not no how to care for the dogs after a match then you have no business matching in the first placeit is the best way to perserve the breed but also feel that people who will just let the dog die and not concede a match are dispicable and yes i truly hate these people. i also believe that the dogmen that really loved there dogs and would do anything in their power to save heir dogs deserved to be honered and more dog men should strive to be like that and if they do not then they are doing nothing but a diservace to real dogmen

 

i think stratton said it best if there was another way to preserve gameness i would ratger see that but i do not think there is another may, but i also have fought in the ring and i respect the true warriors that these dogs are

 

"When I start breeding for color I'll sure call them staffordshires because that's all they will be in a couple of generations"
Howard Heinzl

 

Can I answer yes and no? Michelle (GSD) answered the question perfectly. I think there are more "pet pit bull" owners versus game dog owners. I often find the "pet pit bull" owners proud of the fact their dogs are not dog aggressive. It's like a burden they don't want to deal with. I also find it disturbing when a pit bull owner says their dog isn't dog aggressive because they are not preparing for the worst. As a pit bull owner, we should all be on guard and not take it for granted that just because our dogs haven't fought in the past they will never fight in the future. To me, that is denial of the breed's characteristic.

I don't think someone has to love the dogmen for engaging in dogfighting but there is no dancing around the fact without them, our dogs wouldn't be what they are today. There are many people on PBF that feel that way and it is unfortunate. I believe it was Colby Dogs that stated how important it is to know a breed's history. I find it fascinating how our breed got to where it is today because of the dogmen. There is difficulty separating what dogfighters are involved in today versus how the dogmen fought their dogs. There is a huge difference between the two. Today's dogfighters are an embarrassment and a disgrace to the breed.

I rambled on enough, I am tired.

 

Voted Yes .... I have thought about this numerous times but I feel I have come to a point where you cannot hate these dogger's but love the dog. Why? Because the 2 go hand in hand. The apbt was orginally created for a purpose to fight without those doggman you would have no apbt. They laid the foundation for our breed and it is because of them we have these dogs today and their legacy. How can you claim to love something but deny part of who they are? That's hypocritical. When you love something you take the good with the bad and you accept it for what it is. At one time the sport was legal those doggman where not breaking any laws they were doing what they loved and dedicating their lives to perfecting what they loved. Even if some like myself cannot understand the act of wanting to fight these dogs we can still appreciate the sport for what it was intended to be back in those days. I think when people know a better way of life they live a better way of life. I always thought old doggman admired what they didn't have within themselves the strength loyalty and courage those dogs posessed.



The same people who own these dogs and do not accept the breed for what it is and the man behind them are the ones walking around in denial who have caused so many problems in our breed today by trying to turn this breed into something it was not intended to be . And I agree these wanna be dog fighter's like Mike Vic running around are nothing but a bunch of street thugs trying to be cool and make a little money but they have no appreciation for the american pitbull terrier or their history it's not about the dogs anymore with these dogfighter's today they are also a disgrace to old dogger's and the breed itself

 

I just wanted to say I agree with the idea that if you love the breed as a whole you need to at least appreciate where it came from and the dogmen who created it. Now, that doesnt mean liking the dog fighters of today, because in my opinion most old dog men who did well and created dogs worth carrying on wouldnt stand in a box with these punks.

I think they loved their dogs for the most part and did what was right. You and I all know that the losers weren't all killed like the HSUS says. Many dogs who have lost have become producers afterward. . .Many of the currs probably were killed, but I doubt in the fashions like many imagine these days.

Having spoken to quite a few old dog men this past year alone- I truly feel respect for them. The way they recall their dogs- like members of the family- tells me they love them. And, although I do not condone dog fighting I feel that if it were legal and carried on with vets and judges etc then the game would be better off, because many street thugs who do not love the dogs would not pay the taxes, deal with the judges etc.

Anyway, I voted yes.

 

You know what pisses me off is the ones who say they Hate the dog man BUT Brag about all the " CH and GR CH " dogs that there Petbull has in them. As they are selling pups in the news paper. Wake up people It is the dogmen of the past AND Present that are keeping the true game dog going. And Yes a LOT of dog men are SCUMBAGS but alot are good folks. Its all in who you want to be part of. J

 

Make no mistake there are still people in the game today doing right just like there were people doing it wrong back in the day. We just don't tell stoties about the riff raff when reflecting on the history of our breed. Bathing the dogs before a match wasn't started because everyone was honest or because the dogs stunk. Lets just make this clear there will always be bad people where there is a possibility of a profit and I don't just mean matching dogs but the puppy peddlers too.

 

I go so far as to say that u shouldnt even own an APBT unless you "look" at them. Im not saying have your dog open to the world at so and so weight, im just saying "look" at em and eliminate curs from the breeding pool.

By not breeding to standards of old we are doing a disservice to the entire breed and we will end up with garbage formerly known as an APBT (AKA bully dogs).

 

You can blame byb's for that you have too many people breeding and don't know what the hell they are doing... I have heard quite a few say this cull and cull hard. I am not a breeder thank god so I don't have to worry about that but I think these byb's have just destroyed this breed it's truly a disgrace that anyone with 2 dogs a little bit of space and half a brain cell can breed.

 

You may not breed but you do support unethical breeding practices if you own blue dogs IMO.

This is not a personal attack its a blanket statement.

 

I agree the only way to stop BYBs is to stop buying from them. But we know that's just wishful thinking.

 

You will never convince me of this BS .... Since you felt the need to go there I feel I should respond accordingly .... Because you know nothing about my dogs or how they were bred all you know is what they look like.

That's foolishness and sheer ignorance at it's finest if you truly believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions but not all blue dogs are curs nor are they all the same or bully for that matter . A dogs color does not determine their gameness or worthiness to the breed. At one time red dogs were not worthy enough to lick the boots of old doggers let alone feed because they were red and dogger's looked down on them for that see what ignorance can do?. Breeding for color is one thing but having occasioanl blue dogs pop up in litter's is another thing. It has been proven that blue is a legitamite color in the breed wether you choose to accept this fact or not is your MO. The whole BLUE dog thing has been hyped up overated and I am not falling a sucker for it because I know better ! Hell you have bully breeder's pimping red dogs too! I see them all the time 100 lbs rednose hippos! So if you own blue dogs or any other color dog based on your logic you are now supporting byb's because bully breeder's are breeding them in all color's shape's and sizes ... Hell I have heard people call respectable doggmann byb's.

I have also heard through the grapevine there are blue dogs being matched today proving themselves worthy in the box wether today's dogger's will come out an openly talk about it is another thing for obvious reason's . And for the record I own A blue dog 1 blue dog out of 4 dogs and she did not come from a blue on blue breeding or a bully breeder she is an american pitbull terrier .Your only supporting unethical breeding when you support breeding for color or anything that goes against the standard of what a working dog should be function and conformation wise, My dog being blue has nothing to do with that she is bred to the standard of the apbt in todays world and I am damn proud of her not just because she is mine but because I have seen alot of poorly bred blue dogs and my girl is awsome and represent's what a blue dog should look like. There are also many instances where blue dogs would pop up in a litter blue is simply a dilute of black it's been proven inbreeding is also a contributing factor to blue dog's popping up in litter's .

This is not a personal attack on your opinons but that's all they are YOUR opinions. Other than that I will not ruin this thread if you wanna debate blue dogs we can go all day long on another post! A person who believes that color alone makes a dog less worthy or game than a red dog, a black dog, ect whatever color you name it is just as bad a byb who breeds for color alone! Old dogger's were not perfect and I think when they culled blue dogs like they did red dogs because they thought their color made them less game showed true ignorance on their behalf. Nope I think I'll keep my Blue girl I rest my case. If you or anyone else has a problem with what I said Pm me!

 

I said, "yes".

I can understand someone being against the act of dog fighting, especially in today realm, since 1) it's illegal and 2) there are a lot of idiots who think they know what they are doing, but don't.

But I can't understand hating the Dog men themselves, especially since, like you said, we wouldn't have the amazing breed we do without them.