Mouth work

Schutzhund is becoming a popular topic around here recently, I hope this means the training forum is about to get more traffic...

I am interested in the last question asked by Bully, what age is best to start training, and in what order. For example, the OB aspect should start at XX weeks, next is bite work at XX months, lastly is tracking which comes at milestone XX.

I guess I want to modify the question to be something like "what is the over all proces when starting with a pup, assuming the pup is between 8 and 12 weeks when purchased/adopted?"

Thanks,
Rick

 

Well I know at my OB class my dog did a socialization class (played with other dogs) from 8 weeks up until 16 weeks. At 16 weeks the pup enters actual OB class with other dogs (where my dog is now).

If I had to guess assuming you are putting alot of time into basic OB I would think starting schutzhund at a year. I only say this because for example in my situation my dog is either just finishing getting his adult teeth or has a few left. He doesn't bite his tug toy hard right now because I was told his teeth may be sore. If their teeth are sore it could them off from the tug, bite sleeve whatever. Performanceknls posted a thread in the agility forum with good information on building prey drive for a pup which I was told what you should be doing for the first year or so. Take this with a grain of salt it is just what I have learned over the past few days lol.

 

You'll find there are some very different training philosophies when it comes to bitework. Some believe in having solid OB prior to any bitework. Some believe in putting no demands on a young dog while building drive and grip. Others do positively based OB, including an out, while building grips, and laying the foundation for tracking. Then there's everything in between.
A couple points bear mentioning. Not every dog has a temperament suited for the pressure of bitework and ob. Nervous, shy dogs are not suitable. I would have your pup's potential evaluated.

Many bitework trainers have never worked bull breeds. They have some different motivations, and progress differently than traditional bitework breeds.

It is really easy for a novice to screw up a young dog's grip accidentally, and once you've done that, you have usually put a permanent problem in place.

Any bitework requires a major committment of time and effort (and often money)put into correct training. I'm not an expert, or an accomplished trainer, but I've had the pleasure of seeing and working with a number of them.

 

I never do tug o war before the dog is 15/18 months old. I start all exercises about that age. They always told me that when doing tug of war with a pup you can damage new teeth and the jawbone. Because they are so strong as pup already. Good luck with your puppy.

 

We started Havoc at around 3 1/2 months old. We started with tracking...and lots of it! We were told to let him do whatever he wants, no OB training except teaching to focus. At about 4-5 months old he started to play with the flirt pole and the puppy sleeve, when he'd get it we'd have to walk him in circles to teach him to hold it. For a while when we'd go to class, he'd track a little, and then sit there and watch the other dogs, then play a little. We started OB work at about 7-8 months old. He is 10 months old now, and is learning the protection aspect now and still doing obedience and tracking (I hate tracking lol).

We still have a LONG way to go lol

 

As stated before it depends on a lot of factors. It is especially important to find one that knows how to work bull breeds. I travel an hour and a half weekly to go to mine, and am there for a good 8 hours most weeks.

Generally you want to make sure to not inhibit the pup with biting while still having a dog that you can live with. Lots of lots of positive when very young and making it all fun for the pup so they look forward to training.

A good OB foundation is extremely important as well. People who want to just work their dog in bite work without the OB foundation are a danger to themselves, society and their dog.

IMO shy, fearful, nervy or sharp dogs, esp APBT should NEVER be worked in protection sports. The ideal working dog is one that fears nothing and can go anywhere safely.

Biggest thing to avoid is a trainer that tells you they can make any dog into a protection dog. Dogs worked in defense (fear) are unpredictable in their response (will they actually protect, will they bite when not provoked), and are commonly ruined by hack trainers.

As to when to start a pup on each portion of training, it depends on the pup, the owner, the time commitment, the trainer and the sport.

Genevieve

 

BostonBully, there's a big difference between training a dog for bitesports (Schutzhund, Ringsport), and training a dog for protection. The vast majority of sport dogs are not protection dogs, they are playing a game, and typically, following pattern training. A protection dog is not oriented towards biting a sleeve or suit, it's going to try to take out the man. If this is what you're looking for, while there are a few capable apbt's out there, IMO it is much more suitable for other breeds, such as the malinois, or traditional guardian breeds. Our breed is the ultimate canine athlete, and certainly it will try to do whatever we ask of it, but there are things that we shouldn't ask.

 

Excellent point. I happen to agree entirely which is why I work my dog in Sch and not PP.

Genevieve

 

No I wasn't looking for PP. I just thought the bark on command would be pretty good to know. Schutzhund as a sport would be really good. I want my dog to do agility, weight pull, conformation, and mabe schutzhund. I just want to keep my dogs body and mind busy as well as mine.

 

I have been doing Sch for about 7 years off and on with 8 dogs. I started a couple as adults but all of my younger dogs were raised with the intentions of doing k9 sports including agility. Because I don't do sch exclusively I never allow my dogs to bite me as pups. I start my pups as early as 6 weeks with toy drive because it plays an important part in what I do with my kennel. I have dogs as young as 10 months on a sleeve but I also make sure they are mentally ready to progress at that rate. Not all my dogs have the temperament to do sch. I have 19 dogs in our kennel and only 8 have ever done sch. I do have 1 dog that is a great home protection dog. The rest are totally useless. I have thought of getting some mean rottie x shep mix to keep watch at the house, lol. Kaos is not a typical sch APBT he works more defense drive instead of prey drive. He is looking at the helper when the sleeve is dropped but after everything is said and done he can still be friends with him.

I start OB and Agility at about 12 wks. bite work is not them same as playing with a toy. Bite work is best handled by your trainer or an experienced handler. APBT's tend to grip by the front of the mouth, you want a full grip in sch. It's not a major deduction but it's preferred for a nice grip and carry. When you start bite work depends on the dog and your experience. As far as tracking goes you should start that asap in a young dog. I have started as early as 16 weeks.

It takes dedication for this sport and you need to find good people to train with. Before you start working on sch with an older dog you should have them evaluated to make sure the have the correct temperament.

hope all that made sense I have a horrible head cold, lol:rolleyes: