TNT(apbt x ast) crossed with game lines

The ruffian line is the purest line off of grand champ blackjack. I wouldn't count them out of the gamedog equation. If bred properly and selected for gameness they probaly would have rivaled some of the better dogs of the 70's. But that wasn't what their owners wanted. But don't doubt what you don't know. All gamedogs whose owners wanted their dogs AKC registered name them amstaffs. But behind it all is a pitbull. I dont think a ruffian dog has any less capability as a gamedog than a jeep or any other line. Its all in the individual dog. I would bet that some of those TNT dogs could give a gamedog a runn for its money if it were legal to do so. And there are two versions of TNT dogs. You have the heavier more watchdog influenced Condra dogs and then you have the smaller Turpin dogs. And how many other "Ch's" where spotpicked. I think there were quite a few. If I had a time machine we could see what was really good. Not all show dogs are pos.

 

Two great dogs that were known to be 1/4 Amstaff were CH Fox's "Alvin The Dog" and GRCH Tudor's "White Rock" white rock was said to be the hardest bitting dog in all of breed history.

From creditable sources Carver was said to be infamous to take several Amstaffs that would go 5 or 10 min and sell them as his breeding and would himself even breed them to sell as match dogs. And is even quoted as saying something like. My job is to sell you soup, NOT the recipe.... LOL ohh the stories on that man wish I knew him.

AmStaffs as a rule have Extreme mouth but lack wind. The ruffian dogs as a rule are more drivey than the other Amstaff lines.

If a dog works for you then that's you I won't hate on you for feeding it, working it, and breeding it. I wish you all the luck in the world. Just don't expect to peddle many pups to knowledgeable dog people. They'd rather have a sorry Inbred dog from inbred parents that were from inbred parents that were from inbred parents.

Not advocating breeding of currs. Just that good dogs are always where you find them. Some are just found to be more in certain places but nowadays more people breed on tight papered currs or unhunted dogs than real dogs.

Excuse the ramblings. Readings to much of Mayfeild.. LOL

 

The Ruffian line has been bred so long for show I doubt many would be truly game dogs. Some are drivey & some are even DA, but heck, I've seen Jack Russells who were drivey & DA!

Now could there be some good, game staffs? Sure! I had once read that Peggy Harper of Har-Wyn AST kennels would give Carver all the staffs she had that were too DA for her & he would sell the dogs & even used some in his own program! But you're not going to find too many serious fanciers willing to take the gamble on a dog bred for generations off ancestors bred to do nothing when you have a much higher odds of success with a dog bred off ancestors bred to work.

As for the TNT dogs, there is not (to my knowledge anyway) two lines. I purchased 2 pups from TNT, have a yard video, as well as many pics of her dogs. Most ranged in the 65 lb area. In later years she started getting more into more game bred dogs, who were of course smaller, but TNT line overall is still bigger than most game dog lines due to the staff influence.

As far as I know, there is no "Condra line" or "Turpin line." Both Gail Condra & Stephanie Turpin co-founded TNT Knls & ran the same blood. The dogs look similar, if not the same. However GC decided to dissolve their partnership when ST wanted to do things that GC didn't think was right for the dogs.

At least that is what I was told on the matter.

 

Okay anyone that wants to sling the TNT name through the mud take it to Stephanie you can e-mail her at chtroublechgrim@gmail.com

Straight from her mouth

"if any body has doubts about my dogs the can email me, and Timex is 2xw otc.......everybody knows in the GA,TN,KY,TX,IN. circuit that my dogs have always and will always b real...100% pit.....and 100% GAME... "

 

you have got to be kidding me right? nothing like an admission of guilt. what-it wasnt even 2 months ago she got arrested and her dogs confiscated, and now this gem. im sorry buy you can tell her she isnt the sharpest spoon in the drawer. :rolleyes:

 

this thread might ring a bell...
http://www.game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30653&highlight=bust

 

It seems unlikely that a dog with so much amstaff in it would have been a real ch like is claimed with blu trouble.
I mean anything can happen,but it seems highly unlikely to me.
funny thread,Ive found that people who own and run the TNT line to be the most sensitive of all dog owners in this breed.

 

why bring up this old thread?? seems like everytime someone is bored they go after the TNT bloodline. yes it started out as 3/4th staff blood, yes there were fixed records and all that good stuff in the past. now they are great weightpull dogs and have lots of drive and are great dogs for those that want a dog that does not carry alot of fire.
do your research there are a few very proven dogs out there right now and a few are throwing nothing but fire. i dont own any tnt dogs but i know people that do and a few people here own them and breed them with pride so there is no reason to single out this bloodline. every bloodline has its good and its bad and ALL of them have questionable history.

 

Hey CaliKieth here is a dog that I have that is a 50/50 cross... He's not alone their are plenty of crossed TNT dogs out there... do your research and you will find them.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=137780

 

Oh,i know about the TNT line,its super popular.
the question has been asked why bring up a old thread?
Because i tryed to start a thread about game lines crossed to amstaff and if any performance dogs were produced,but it wasn't taken the right way so no info was provided,this is the closest line i know of that is amstaff to game dog and produces working stock,soooo i read and replied back,thats all.
and the link didn't work for me,ill try again.
to me,and i dont know if it even matters,but there seems to be a chance the early watchdog line was a cross of American bulldog,i ain't saying it is,I'm saying theres speculation in my mind,and my mind dosent matter,if the dogs produce and the owners are happy,thats what matters,but that is foundation for the TNT line.
Theres just a lot of unanswered questions about the line,and I'm not saying i deserve the answers or that theres anyone here who has them,I'm just interested a bit.
hope that clears it up for ya!
also alot of people who run the line make some far fetched claims so it opens it up for questioning in my opinion,i mean if the owners make the claim they should provide the proof,jmo.

 

ok,it
it worked,
Ive seen this dog before,or at least a few in its pedigree,good looking dog.
thats precisely what i was interested in seeing.
These dogs excel at weight pull for sure.
Eddie fallin produced alot of aces and i believe this is what he uses as well.

 

Lets make this statement again, lol:

Who and where you get your dogs from makes a hell of a difference!

Jeeperino and a few others are correct, most dogmen do not fool with these lines that are being discussed usually impart to the fact that they are very low percentagwise for a matchdog. However, a real "matchman" doesn't really give two sh#ts how a dog is bred as long as it can make him some money! So, if there's a known breeder of box dogs breeding poodle crosses that's working then they will get thenmselves one (obviously this is just an exaggeration).

With that being said, a "matchman" will do his/her best to get a dog from someone that is breeding dogs for the box and the box only. Most "matchmen" are not going to TNT for their box dogs. But just for the record, there is a Champion out there that is ELI/TNT that is extremely talented! Although, this isn't a popular choice amongst dogmen/matchmen. This CH dog was not purchased from TNT.

 

Hold on! What worked? What do you mean by worked? I have seen this dog at the ADBA shows and he is absolutely gorgeous and definately deserving if his place in the conformation and even weight-pull arena if thats what he is used for. Beautiful animal!

But if the question is does a TNT dog work? I don't think we are discussing conformation or weight-pulling are we? Any scatterbred cross can work for that matter, can it?

BTW, Ed Falin has beautiful dogs that I have seen with my very own eyes!

 

Hey MrMark thanks for the compliment on my dog... I think what calikieth was referring to as far as working is the link...lol

 

Oh, my bad! And I do mean that with all sincerity, your dog is a work of art!

 

OK cats & kittens, I'm gonna throw some info out there & you can take it for what it's worth. I did business back w/ TNT when she was supposedly hunting with Sheba & Trouble. I can tell you I saw these dogs with my own 2 eyes. Both Trouble & Sheba were running loose in the house together. They both were clean as a whistle. And anyone who knows dogs will know SOMETHING will show on a dark dog, esp. a black one, but Sheba was crystal clear, as was Trouble. No healed tusk marks, nothing.

After I met ST, I began hearing about how they allegedly faked catches. I asked ST directly about it & she said no, it was false, she did NOT falsify anything. She said RB made her mad by saying in the PBR that blue dogs couldn't do anything, so she decided to prove him wrong. I figured, OK, but if these dogs had been in the woods, why did they look spotless? So I asked her why Trouble looked so clean. She said she had made a mistake, that she took Trouble into anyone who would catch with her & that as a result he sustained little damage. She even gave me names of people to contact to verify her story.

I asked her for more details & she told me one of Trouble's catch competitors was a 62 lb Chinaman dog. We all know GOOD Chinaman dogs usually don't run 62 lbs. So basically she was taking Trouble (& likely all her other dogs at the time) to catch against newbs with fluffs. But she said that in the future she would make sure she went into stiffer catch dogs.

So basically she admitted to me that all Trouble's wins were into push overs & I am willing to bet any dog from that era (Sheba, Buckshot, Rowdy, etc.) were too if they did anything at all. Trouble was even denied his CH. certificate even though reports were submitted. I was told he was refused b/c he too clean. ST maintains he was refused b/c he is blue, which may be true. But I have been told from other sources who have also seen Trouble up close & personal that it was indeed b/c he looked like he hadn't seen the woods in his life. He didn't even have so much as a white hair on his blue coat. So as a result *technically* Trouble isn't a CH. He is a 3xw, yes, but not a CH. b/c he never was awarded a CH. certificate or CH. title from a recognizing body.

I took all this with a grain of salt, as I figured no one would give me references to contact if they were lying & any marks could be made virtually invisible with good after care - or so I thought then. So for years I believed ST's version of the story. The earlier TNT dogs did hunt, but went against fluffs. And she did seem to go against more serious hunters with her later dogs, like Grim.

But then someone requested a copy of an old TNT yard vid I had b/c it shows all TNT's old dogs. I pulled it out & watched it to make sure it had what the person wanted on it & it did have all the old dogs they wanted to see. And I noticed, all of them were again crystal clear. I mean like Windex clear. Some dogs were tethered, but many others were kenneled next to one another. The chain link panels were linked together & no partition was in between to prevent fence fighting. No DA was shown at any time, even when the vid featured the "2xw" Sheba chasing a ball around the yard all up & down the kennels. Usually a dog running the fence line will trigger some type of aggression or at the very least some prey drive. But there was nothing. All these "winning" catch dogs dogs stood statue still as Sheba played. Well I take that back. One dog aggressed at the fence one time. As for Sheba, the she totally ignored all the other dogs.

I found this quite disconcerting. I had started in the breed w/ Watchdog stuff & it is true, they're more mellow than game bred dogs. But once my WD female got into her first yard accident, you couldn't keep her fenced next to other dogs or they're be a helluva fence fight. But these supposed catch dogs were kenneled right next to each other standing there meek & mild as kittens.

On the subject of Trouble's sire, Blaze of Glory, I was told he was a UKC show CH. bred down from pure AKC AST blood. He allegedly aggressed at another dog at a show (might have grabbed the dog, I can't remember) & was banned from the UKC. So yes, from what I was told he was pretty DA. It's good to have a dog that shows a desire to work for it's intended purpose, but again DA doesn't always = game.

As for Ms. Condra, I contacted her years ago while I was trying to figure this whole thing out. She & ST founded TNT kennels as partners. But she told me she decided to break it off w/ ST & go her own way when ST took up her personal vendetta against RB. But there is no real difference in the lines & the dogs are bred exactly the same. So there isn't really a "Condra line" & a "Turpin line" per se. Now when you go from Grim forward is where the line starts to differ. But as far as the Trouble stuff, they used each others' dogs interchangeably. On the vid I have it even shows a supposed Condra dog - TNT's Tank - on ST's yard.

Oh well, I hope this helps. The TNT line is good in it's own way & it's a lot better than most of the blue junk circulating out there. Are they good pull dogs? Yes. Are they good show dogs? Yes. But it is NOT what all what it's supporters make it out to be, at least IMO. And this is coming from a person who has met the foundation dogs & owned stuff right from ST.

(BTW, my dogs were off Lucky To Be Here x Honeybear.)

 

thanks for the input ABK

 

No problem. Here are more examples of the TNT x game bred crosses I've found. Even TNT herself was getting away from the original blood, or at least crossing it to get her TRUE working dogs. Anyway, here's the peds I found:

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=309414

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=308883

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=270622

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=247413


TNT breedings:

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=248123

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=19319

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=79692

There are others out there I'm sure, these are just ones I found.

As for the Falins, from the peds I saw that they either directly mailed to me or that I saw online they do not seem to be crossing any TNT blood into game blood. Unless things have changed, they've been crossing TNT blood back into itself or out to UKC PR blood.

And please let me say, before any one gets angry, in my previous post about TNT I am not trying to drag them through the mud or say anything negative about ST or her dogs. I was just sharing the truth directly from her concerning the matter.

Hope this helps.

 

NOTICE ALMOST ALL T-N-T DOGS ARE 1xw? HOW MANY CHAMPIONS? 1? THATS GOTTA MAKE YOU THINK...WHY ARENT THERE ANY 2XW WINNERS OR MORE CH. OR EVEN 1 GR.CH.? WHAT? WHAT DID THEY GO INTO? IM IN TN AND NEVER EVER HEARD ANYTHING GOOD ABOUT THEM....NOT "GAMEDOGS" IMO...:eek:

 

wow do you know this is a public site....