The American Bully?

I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT DO THINK ABOUT THE NEW BLOOD LINES THAT CAME FROM THE APBT. LIKE, EDGE, GOTTI, REMY, SHOT SHOT, GRAY LINE, GAFF, NEVATA AND WHATCH DOG. THEY ALL HAVE REAL BIG HEADS, BIG BONES, REAL BIG THICK BODYS AND COME REAL SHORT AND TALL.

I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW ARE THESE 100% APBT OR ARE THEY NOT.


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TAKING THE DRIVE IN A POSITIVE DIRECTION !!!

 

Most of those bloodlines were bred for structure or appearance. True bulldogs were bred based on ability. If you do a little research you will see alot of those dogs have AST in them. This a no-go because that is a separate breed, why add something to another that already holds its own standard?

 

THATS WHAT I HAVE BEEN THIKING, WHY FIX SOMETHING THAT IS NOT BROKEN.

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TAKING THE DRIVE IN A POSITIVE DIRECTION !!!<!-- / message -->

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Well, I don't know if I'd lump all those bloodlines in together. Nevada is clearly a show kennel, but I wouldn't call their dogs bully. From what I've seen, lines like Watchdog and Greyline can go either way, and there are even some good Razors' Edge dogs out there. (Boogieman's Nick comes to mind. You might be able to find old pics of him still on this forum if you look.)

With regard to the American Bully in general, it's not something I would own and feed. But I fully support the enthusiasts of that type of dog calling it American Bully to make a distinction between that and a standard-bred APBT. As far as whether they're mixed or not, I don't doubt that some are. In other cases, they're just a fine example of what crappy breeding will do to good dogs. You can breed for dwarfism and exaggeration and turn an APBT into a treestump in short order, if you're dedicated enough to the idea of making it happen.

Just wanted to add that even though the focus of this board is gamedogs, we try to keep a tight rein on bully threads because they tend to spiral downhill quick. If this can stay civil and have a modicum of educational value, I think it can be allowed to stand. Just pre-emtively asking those who may want to contribute to temper their words so we don't have to lock 'er up.

 

Just wanted to add, Watchdog was not originally bred for size or color. They were UKC show dogs who could be real deal bulldogs. WD bred dogs were a little bigger, usually 60 - ish, but they were bred to be in proportion, no big heads, wide chests, short legs, etc. It was only after the owner of WD kennels got out of the breed & fad breeders got a hold of his stuff that the WD blood began to go downhill.

 

American Bullies are a mixature of the APBT, the Amstaff, the mastiff (in some cases) and the English Bulldog (in some cases), and who knows what else.

 

I have a couple of buddies that defend the camelot line being pure.What are some of your opinions?

 

Get new buddies?

 

I cant hate my buddies just because they want to be to stubborn to realize what a true apbt is.

 

My opinion is that purity really doesn't matter. They may very well be pure. But for any line or any kennel of dogs, once you get to the point that they deviate greatly from the standard, call them something else. I always use this example, but if I took purebred Rottweilers, discovered a mutant gene that made them come out white, and then started breeding my white dogs for a smaller size -- say, 40 pounds -- would my 40-pound white Rotties still be Rotties? I think not.

 

Rrrrrrrrrruffff! Rrrrrrruffff! Scratch... Scratch.....!

 

I My Self Do Not Believe These Dogs To Be 100%. It Has Been Allegded That Many Of These Bloodlines(re,eddington,chevy) Consist Of Masstiff Type Dogs. This In It Self Takes Them Out Of Our Breed. However, If They Choose To Call Themselves American Bullies I See No Problem With This, And With This They Should Promote Themselves As Such. As We Find Out To Often When Mixing Our Dogs With Others You Take Away Stability In The Mind Sometimes, I Believe This Is Where We Come Up With Alot Of The Bad Press. Just My Opinion

 

well let me put my 2 cents on this...
I think the begining of the american bully people have a misconception..Lets just put one dog that comes to everybody's mind notorious juan gotty...now his pedigree he is PR his pedigree is all show dogs from UKC..anyways amstaff...now obviously this now was a amstaff with much more muscle mass and he wasn't overly exagerated either as far as amstaff goes but still he was a dog at the time not seen anywhere and got fame..Ok the owner got greedy and started studded him out with just any bitch...Now as you all know if not breeding correctly diseases are passed on, deformations and so on...What i think also really happened was too much of inbreeding done by people with little knowledge on a purpose of a breeder..Not only was the breeding done for stupid things like Color, size of head, size of dog but also the bitches chosen were not propertly inspected as far as pedigree, what diseases are found in the family tree, also genetic disorders stuff like that..So i think over the years...and also breeding dogs before mature age in which you really start seeing problems have caused to their offsprings of their offsprings of their offpsrings in which we see now to look as how they are looking.. YOu can take a look at many books of dogmen and you will see apbts that have a face of a american bulldog, or maybe are large, have the bow leggs as well...and they are game bred...the difference is those dogman always kept one purpose in mind and that is breeding the dog for performance well gameness which is what the apbt is all about...while these guys not only their dogs were just show but they stopped breeding according to comformation and started wanting to do things differently breed for other purposes...
So its really and truly not a case of crossbreeding but irresponsible breeding in resulting to diseases that are passed on to the offsprings in which are now being seen present physically as before they focused too much on just the outside and even the outside aspects were not what a breeder should be looking for. The small deal that apbts were not bred for performance and only show you see a more massive dog..so imagine taht dog being bred to be even more massive and not even for show just no purpose for the breeding...

same with razor's edge their one of their main bully well the begining was the Gr Ch Razor's Edge Throwing Knuckles now his pedigree has AKC amstaff in it...to some that's cross breding to others its not...i mean to me a show dog with all apbt is still amstaff so same thing to me...not the same as gamebred apbt of course...anyways so it wasn't cross bred with mastiffs or bulldogs nothing like that..it was getting AKC amstaffs with PR UKC registered apbt and in honestly a lot of them also especially for Gotti on some of their first "bullies" the dogs had game bred dogs in it with it with PR UKC apbt...
Razor's edge in particular when they got their first "american bully" on how they wanted which was like NOtorious Juan GOtty but short to the ground it was Cairo..cairo's pedigree is actually a lot of champions from UKC and some GR of AKC..
they just would find a AKC the shortest as they could find and as stocky as they could find and UKC champions as shortest as they could find...to finally they got Cairo...

Again now i think what really is happening is these two got real popular and when things are in demand of course people seize the opportunity because human are greedy and i do think these two lost site and the truth of what a breeder is truly about and totally ignored what they were doing to the breed...just like the AKC people how they lost site on how they affected the breed in the long run as well as UKC...

So the dogs we see now is just product of irresponsible breeding..these dogs got popular the young ones thought man i can get adog like that they can produce at 6 months of age and I make $$$$...and had no clue on anything pure ignorance...Anyways we had a show here in Texas this week to raise money for EBA and we had a ring for the American Bully we had Gary out there to speak to them on the importance of being active with the laws and being responsible of course...I was helping with the registration and it was soooooo mind blowing to me how most of these american bullies were not even registered with UKC in which that's what i thought but registered with ADBA...and what was more crazy was these people did not even know about the ADBA standard I had the boards out there ADBA ring UKC and ABKC ring and they would come with their bullies to the ADBA to register them under ADBA ring...some even tried to argue with me saying no my dog is ADBA and I'm explaning to them listen this is an educational fun show and there is a standard STANDARD for the APBt For adba and ukc and abkc is not apbt but american bully...here is where your dog fits the standard...

Now ADBA has allowed many many people to write their dogs pedigree and send it in and they still allow them to register their dogs as APBT...knowing in fact that their dogs were cross bred or honestly the pedigree was bs...that has also done a great deal with all this chaos...

We need to educate these people on the importance of first a BREEDEr is not just for anybody that job is not for just anybody and there is a purpose and goal and responsibility...
TWO on judging the dogs and that is more for UKC when juding apbt it should be judged on what it was bred for..every other breed is judged based on what they were bred for and that's why they can keep consistancy and less chaos...At least UKC is attempting to put the standard more towards a working/performance dog as to what it was mainly a show dog which truly is amstaff. its still not as true to the apbt as ADBA has kept with but at least its a start...Even my dog who I say is amstaff i mean i condition her to be lean and she's a working dog...no one gets food for free at my home..everything i put her to do she must do and she does it liking it and always happy to do it..but when she is conditioned to what i like her to be lean around 48 actually to me i like her even more leaner 45...at UKC ring next to a 55 pound more "bulkY' they pick the other one..now when i don't condition her and let her get fat really at 55 lbs the judges love her...A working dog next to a show dog is completly different and its hard to judge and the judges are somewhat ignorant to the history of the breed and choose amstaffs. Buhamut's dog i wasn't in the ring with them i don't think but like if my bitch loses to their dogs i'm happy to me the judge placed the working/performance apbt...if i lose to a big ass amstaff with thick ass head and neck, a dog that is not agile, has no wind i mean i get upset but there's nothing i can do because to some judges from UKC who are also judges in AKC that's their preferences...

I also wish UKC and ADBA will stop allowing AKC dogs to be registered with them as apbt, and further more no longer allow AKC dogs be bred to adba or ukc registered dogs and not allow their litters to be registered...
Notorious Juan Gotty and the dogs of Razor's edge in all reality were never a true american bully they were just amstaffs with more muscles...and dogs that stocky were seen although rare back in the day as well...it was nothing new....

My blue female has Notorious Juan GOtty in her pedigree her whole pedigree mainly is bulldogs working dogs really or show apbt from ukc which is truly amstaffs to be she is a bulldog she is a working dog...when i tell people she has Notorious Juan Gotty in her pedigree they dont' believe it because of how she looks...and the offsprings of Notorious Juan Gotty in her pedigree they are all show dogs(amstaffs) and some were actually used to work...anyways long story short i call her a bulldog or amstaff... to some she represents the apbt in a positive light..because she is involved with everythign agility, weight pull, obedience and although not my favorite she does conformation and is champion in UKC...
next year we will be doing some hog hunting and i want to involve her in more things...

when a dog is no longer being bred for what is was truly bred for genetics change...and i think that's the reality of it...( i do agree maybe with some dogs maybe possibility of breeding with mastiffs like the whopper line, but i would say what we see right now is just product of stupid breeding methods if they are even methods, doesn't mean all razor's edge and gotty dogs are bad..)

oh and another thing which i've been seeing is people saying they have "gottiline" or razor's edge bloodline but its like my dogs she is not gottiline bloodline..that's just how confused these guys can be...

 

I agree with you ! , but I have heard that Dave wilson has mixed in breeds , I also remember seeing like 5 years ago on a few American bully ( mainly blue nation kennels) websites saying something along the lines of their dogs could be mixed but the passed is the passed and what we have today are great dogs etc... then a week later they all took that long paragraph down ?!?! .....

I also agree with these people be very ignorant and confused. They seem to think a line is created because they get one bad ass stud dog. then they say its a bloodline ?!?!

I also noticed over the years of research that a lot of these dogs are sick not even healthy , I keep seeing RIP on a lot of kennels the dogs where not even old. I have noticed from Ruckus kennels they have a bunch of RIP on their dogs . Some died from heat stroke ..... I mean if you can keep breeding these dogs and notice they are not living full healthy lives why keep breeding ? But o wait I forgot its all about $$$ ........

 

sorry but Dave wilson his mix was AMSTAFF WITH APBT...nothing else...and people took it and you know how rumors start...
you can say all what you have heard but the truth is his mix was that...and again to some it is a mixing to others its not...if people in UKC bash that then most of them have mixed dogs then...u kno what i mean...? What we must keep on doing is educating the importance of being responsble breeder believe me I come across these youngings and I feel like killing them with my bare hands...but bashing them just makes them get more fueled...But teaching them what the responsibility of a breeder is makes the wheel turn a little to further educate on the realities of things...

 

Can someone post a pic (showing an example) of each of these BULLY lines. I would like to see the visual differences of each American BULLY line.

 

Ok so at the begining this is what they were producing basically amstaffs, this dog was even a grand champion for UKC...Paddington


This bitch was then bred to this AKC ch stud

in which is found in plenty pedigrees of dogs in UKC today even those people who bash the american bully find themselves with similar pedigrees...maybe a change in the bitch or stud here in there... and these two created their first true bully which really gave razor's edge "fame" OMG fame anyways..
Cairo
here is pedigree somebody actualy did one...
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=125913
here is photo



but now the youngings once these dogs got I dunno in demand and their stud fee was so expensive their pups for some reason worth 3000 people wanted to breed razor's edge most dogs are not even full razor's edge but kennels promote it as such

and these dogs are being produced...beware of ugliness..



ok that's razor's edge

 

OK now to Notorious Juan Gotty...basically his father's side is mainly show dogs from UKC and also Amstaffs... here is sire of Notorious Juan Gotty and the parents of his sire...

Sire
PR Chain Gang's Barney
Dam

Pr Tony's Showtime...
OK SO Greyline Raider 2 was bred to this bitch here

PR GRAY LINES CALLE LOVE BLUEGOOD which was basically his daughter...
her dam was
'PR' TEE'S NEW MERCY

the pedigree all show dogs PR UKC apbt and some akc grand champion here and there...

creating this...





now he was over bred bred with some good bitches and some bad...

and irresponsible breeders same as with razor's edge are now producing this and calling it a "good" quality gottiline dog...most don't even have gotty more then twice...
anyways...here is again beware of ugliness



now this is a female direct daughter of notorious juan gotty dam is pr certified blue town baby...her pedigree all amstaffs really UKC apbt...

and this is what you get and the concept of what american bully should be





Notorious Juan Gotty

 

Well this is beating a dead horse subject but here goes. I own a dog that is RE x York. His is a damn good dog. Works hard if I ask him to. Great attitude. You really couldn't ask for a better pet. He isn't DA in the least. He isn't a deformity of disgust like some of the bullies you see waddling around now days. Some of them dogs I look at make me hurt from the horrible structure they have. When I tell most people how he's bred they look at me like I'm lying. Some don't. I know what he is though and he has never, nor will he ever be bred....and I've had at least 100 offers. :rolleyes: I would like people to see though that not all the dogs that carry RE in the ped are crappy, squatty, basketball head sized mutts. That don't make him any better or worse than any other dog. That's just my personal opinion. (oh btw he isn't in near as good of shape as he can be in any of these pics)

One more thing, I can't stand it when any bully owner wants to spout off PR like it has anything to do with the quality of the dog. We all know it doesn't mean squat and it's simply a byb term to lure more unsuspecting, undeducated buyers in for the kill. WhoopDEE shit......PR.

Here he is