artical on "battlecrosses"

artical on "battlecrosses"

Informative article, thought it may be useful to everyone.

http://www.game-bred.com/game bred dogs and heterosis.pdf

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

good read i was wanted to no exactly wat a battle cross was i mean i had an idea but i was never really sure thanks.

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

In apbt it is with two or more strains of apbt NOT other types of dogs some of the best box dogs were Battle cross. J

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

I'm a newbie, and I eat up info like this, so I thought others may like it too.

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

I have always believed in breed the best to the best. Whether they are in the same lines or not, but u still breed for key for traits that u like in your dogs.

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

Not true.

It is often with other APBT but not always.

Frisco Sport who was the best dog on the East coast for a while (and one of the best dogs ever) was an English bull terrier crossed with an early American pit bull terrier. Stormer was also half English bull terrier.

Battle cross is a word to describe more distant lines being crossed just for "battle" and not for breeding. Sometimes distant lines within the same breed and sometimes different breeds. It is done with roosters a lot. Shamo being bred to Asil for example (two different breeds).

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

Thanks I thought it would be useful too, so I wrote it lol.

Nice to have positive feed back on it. I got a lot of positive feed back on the article and some negative. Most of the negative critics never back any of their criticisms with facts (just insults usually).

I'm a fan of crossing as long as lines are also kept pure alongside the crossing program. You have to have good pure lines around in order to have good battle crosses. (btw I also used to breed and use lurchers for a while and lurchers are generally crosses with greyhounds).

p.s.
I should of left out the reference to humans as it upset a lot of people. But anyway I wrote it a long time ago and it served its purpose, of clearing up the "what is a battle cross" question; i hope.

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

I have NEVER herd of a good dog man IN TODAYS time doing any thing like that. That may have been done many years ago. But you can Be quite sure That dog frisco sport is not in many Peds that are of much importance in todays dogs. And Battle cross dogs are on the ROM list so they are of importance in breeding. We can get in to well I read a book and it said a bosten Terrior and pit bull (BLABLABLA) won and was bad . What ever! When you hear a Real dog man (modern) Say thats a battle cross you can Damn sure bet he aint talkin of a pitdoodle! And they dont breed roosters with a dove to get the baddest bird even though a Dove is as game as a rooster.(A dove will fight to death 90% of the time) They may bred a Butcher and a black to get the cross but they are still chickens. J

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

I have to agree with you Triple J. This may have worked years (decades/centuries) ago, but not in today's time.

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

:rolleyes:no comment, your reply speaks volumes.

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

I also speaks a realistict truth. Not just what one read in a book.

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

I also agree with TripleJ. A battlecross, such as the one that produced the "infamous" Mayday became their own bloodline. That being said, speaking in general terms, a battlecrossed bulldog usually is taken back to one of the families that produced it or to a bellymate. I certainly do not believe that crossing a bulldog to another breed of dog will produce an exceptional animal. It might beat mediocre opponents but never will succeed in a professional level.

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

Ok Rocky.

Why ?

Triple J's answer is he doesn't read books, so that is just his experience. Ok that's fine but I am an agricultural scientist and that is what we call a statistically invalid answer. I can't debate with him, as he doesn't believe what he reads in books or scientific papers. Fair enough answer but there is no point in discussing it further.

However you say you "believe' that battle crosses of another breed will never be in the top notch of dog fighting ? (forget chicken fighting as hybrids battle crosses between different breeds of chciken is just completely routine and not even a controversial issue)

Please answer these simple questions ?
(1) Are you saying that today's dogs are better than those of the past ?
(2) If not are you really saying that Frisco Sport was not a great fighting dog ? (I can name others too from an even closer time).
(3) Can you explain scientifically rather than just belief as to why crosssing with other very similar breeds (no need for anymore silly remarks as by Triple J about poodles from people than don't even bother to read articles or can't read articles before criticising in silly ways:eek
We all know about scatter, ok what other reasons or is scatter the only one ?

Now as I said to Mr Triple J very clearly that he failed to pick up as stated in the article. Hybrid vigour is achieved by crossing in lines of the same breed and sometimes even outside the breed as in lurchers. Most fighting dogs that have been battle crosses were YES in the same breed ie "pit bull". However he said ALL WERE AND ARE FROM THE SAME BREED. That is not true as I pointed out there are and have been exceptions.


Factual replies would be appreciated rather then replies of "belief" only.

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

Ok . I was not going to do this BUT, FIRST OFF, JACK ASS, we are talking about Real GAME dogs, and YOUR books dont meen sqwat to me I AM A GAME DOG BREEDER!!!!!!! and those dogs your talking about are nothing more than CURR DOGS to me.... AND LIKE I SAID (APBT BATTLE CROSS DOGS ARE NOT CURR DOGS) WE DO NOT BREED LURCHERS. GET IT!! WE DONT CARE ABOUT BOOKS, JUST REAL LIFE!!! GET YOUR HIGH FULLUTION ASS OFF THE HORSE AND YOU MAY LEARN A THING OR TWO ABOUT BREEDIN A GOOD GAME DOG.....WE DONT CARE HOW THEY"SAID THEY MADE ONE DOG THAT WAS GOOD" WE WANT MANY AND THAT DAMN SURE AINT BY CROSSING CURRS. put that in you book pipe and SMOKE IT!!!

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

:eek:I don't smoke !

Actually I agree with most of what you are saying. I was just correcting your slight inaccuracy that no other breeds crossed into pitbulls have been successful as some have (in the pit).

You obviosuly have some good dogs and a lot of experience (I have bred game dogs that have been proven in the pit) but you really should learn to read a bit more and read objectively. Knowing theory along with practical experience together may even improve your skill at breeding (if that is possible of course). I always learn new things as I am sure you can. Good luck with your dogs and your ego!
Adios

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

I have never seen a dog last very long that was a curr bred dog. I am sure you may see them in BOOKS but in the real world where I live, the shit just dont stick, Maybe in your world they are the best thing since slice bread. But we eat bread around here. Later DOC!. J

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

It's gettin deep in here folks, might wanna put some boots on, lol. :p

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

There are many great articles on hybrid vigor, and festivals that are based on this simple technic. The cannibus cup for example.

The issue of breeding two differant types of animals expecting a hybrid vigor is exactly why this boards exist. This board is here for American pitbull terrier owners. Considering the fact that the apbt is a "lurcher" itself. Evidently we all agree this technic of breeding can obviously spawn some breathe takeing animals, why else would we spend so much time enjoying what history has produced.


Although i dont condone outcrossing pitbulls to other families of dogs, for all practical purposes i do belive it was necessary at one time. The gene pool of this breed can now successfully sustain the desired traits, when bred properly. I do belive the dogs of today are better, and the % of the desired animals are also superior to the yester generations (in some families). But few people really understand the concept of maintaing a successful line and eliminating the unwanted throw backs.(AKA the hard work) What they want to do is outcross(within the breed) instead of inbreeding/line breeding and raising the coefficient and bringing the undesired traits to the suface, which then in turn would allow the breeder to eliminate the garbage, raise the % of desired traits for future generations and reap the benefits of the tried and true fact that: the fruit dont fall far from the tree.

As far as pitbull breeders outcrossing to other families: this would explain the huge massive muscular "pitbull" look a likes that have paperwork that say "pit" on them.

btw walter kominski(SP?) bred bull terriers to apbt's because he thought they bit harder, he won with some of those dogs, and it wasnt that long ago.

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

Thanks that was a great reply to my paper, I enjoyed reading it. Kominiski did use English bull terrier * pitbull terrier battle crosses fairly successfully. Your reply was nicely balanced and I agree with most of what you said

Yes English bull terriers almost always (sometimes staffords) seem to be the breed used if outcrossing the APBT to another breed, for specific use in the box (but usually with battlecrosses, as pointed out above by Triple J it is within the pit bull terrier itself). However if talking about other breeds crossed to the APBT (very closely related in the case of the EBT) then English bull terriers have from time to time produced VERY good dogs.

Also yes both English bull terriers and Pit bull terriers could certainly be classified as lurchers when they were first created as could all English bull baiting dogs (some being very game of course), these looking more like greyhounds than modern day pit bull terriers. Recently the swineford http://www.chimerakennels.com/originoftheswinford.htm
kennels are a good example of hybrids, although here in this case, not it seems not using English bull terriers crossed to pit bull terriers but mastiff's and others crosses to pitbull terriers. Probably because the purpose of these dogs is not aimed at the box but aimed at protection.

p.s.
Yes English bull terriers do have an awesome mouth.

Also a major point that many dog men here have missed in my article is this.

"Heterosis increases the chances of inheriting low heritably traits. "gameness is a low heritable trait". Gameness is a trait that is difficult to inherit it is also obtained through many genes and not one. Therefore IT IS A SCEINTIFIC FACT that the heritablilty of gameness is increased by heterosis!!!!!!!!:eek:"

 

Re: artical on "battlecrosses"

i would like to see the pedigree on bobtail buddy. the sire of the orginal cross that produced swineford bantu dog.