Best ZEBO stud

Could you resend it. My system lost it. Thanks..

 

"ABK;276435]
You say people were there & they saw the breeding. Who were they? I would love to know this. PM me if you'd like. Because all you're coming at me right now with is "he said, she said" stuff. The fact is, whether you want to admit it or not, none of us have any physical proof of Zebo's sire. We have words, but nothing physical, nothing tangible."

You don't, that is for sure.
We have done this dance before.
To many toes got step on...

"As for myself, I do dearly hate to disappoint but yes, I was "in the breed" albeit vicariously when these dogs were alive. My family had Colby dogs & the very first dog I ever had was an APBT."

Hold on! Who do you think you are blowing smoke up?
Your family? Maybe owned a pet but at that time you weren't.
I'll prove right here and now how much you know about the Ohio gang.
In the 1979 Geo Mag....NAME WHO'S PICTURES ARE IN THERE, WHERE WERE THE PICTURES TAKEN AND WHAT DOGS ARE PICTURED IN IT!!
Here is one question which is very interesting and only true people around the dogs at the time would know. Who was the woman with straight black hair, dark tinted round glasses on who appears in the mag?
This was National News at the time. If you were in dogs then, tell who had Ch. Diamond Jim when he died or Ch. Jack. Better yet, one of David's closest friends and had one of largest yards of Zebo dogs, hint, last name was Brewer. What was his first name and where did he live and what did he do for a living. Tell what transpired leading up to the Greaser contest which cause Zebo to be entered.
So far I've only directed this towards Zebo bloodline of Ohio.
I haven't brought up the rest of the many well known dogmen from the same state, like who owned Ch. Penny Ante?
Or what happened at the last show of Art's and who stole him and why?
Or better yet, who was the true breeders of Dl. Gr. Ch. Tornado, Ch. Butch, Stripper and owned Ch. Saloon? That is making it easier on you by adding at least 10 years on to when the dogs were around..

Remember this, when you choose to debate or discuss dogs in the Midwest or many parts of this country, if they were in dogs and was about something with the dogs, I knew them.
How come you and I never have crossed paths before?

"And what in the world is "dry snitching?" All I said was either they were there or they were going on hunches. It has to be one or the other, it can't be both."

I edited it today. The last one, was the one which ticked me off seeing his name in print. I didn't feel there was a need for it..

"As for them "coming clean" to me, I never asked them to. But to answer your question I have talked to Cajun Kennels. He is a very nice man indeed."

Then I'm sure he told you about the connection between Eli and Zebo.
If not or he won't then I guess he doesn't feel you need to know or are in the know and it is only for those who know.

"As for what the dogs look like, as you say maybe I do not see it b/c I am working w/ the modern incarnations. But I have had both pure Boudreaux & heavy Zebo dogs on my yard & they looked nothing alike. Personality was sort of similar, but the physical attributes were worlds apart."

Modern? You mean watered down or scatter bred versions.
The dogs I saw was Zebo himself and dogs sire by him.
And if Steve was one of the people who you got your stock from,
good luck knowing the truth..
Barney Fife didn't have it that close himself when he started into dogs.
Hell, he has passed away so hiding his true name isn't important anymore.
Do you even know what his true name was?
Who and what kennel he was in partnership with?

As for Boudreaux dogs, I'm one of the last people you can BS about the dogs from that line. Also are you comparing the Eli dogs or dogs from his half brother Boze? The stock is as different from day light to dark. Or is it a combo of those 2 crossed into each other?
BTW how many recognized champions have you ever produced from the Boudreaux dogs?

"As for recessive genetic traits not hiding, that sir, is a pure & utter fallacy. Recessive traits in dogs have been known to be able to hide for up to 10 generations. However ... I will concede that in APBTs, a breed that is generally linebred &/or inbred, recessive traits generally aren't hidden for nearly as long."

Well here is one thing we know for sure... It didn't take 10 generations for the conformation, color and ill-temperness to show up in both family of dogs.
Even in the [] the styles were the same, first 30, shotgun style of dogs...

"The bottom line is this - you've been in the breed for a long time. You've met a lot of folks, seen a lot of things & know a lot of things. Of this I have no doubt. But if anyone comes on here w/ a view point with which you disagree, you bristle up like an ole sore tail cat & hiss out your "facts" on the matter."

No it just appears that way, as it did in the pass.
Look how many times you have posted compared to me..
About every post I ever posted on, you felt the need to put your 2 cents in and make people believe you know more then you do.
You base your information on what you read somewhere or stories or rumors.
The difference is, mine are from life experiences and what I saw and know first hand.

"I could be wrong,"

Well, sure to hell wouldn't be the first time..

"but it appears to me that it just infuriates you to have some nobody "chicken little" like myself to come along & have a differing view point from yours or even - gasp - openly debate or question anything you say."

Not really as one of the moderators know, when I start to get upset, you will know it..
I believe in the thread of Dogmen Personalities your style was covered as well. BTW how is the view from the cheap seats?
It has been entertaining while playing the sport.
If you would have tried it, a better formed opinion you would have...

"As much as you obviously appear to dislike it, some of us just aren't going to bow down to you or swallow everything you say hook, line & sinker b/c you have xxx years in the breed or have done xxx things or know xxx persons."

Oh so that is what it is? Your sense of pride? LOL you better learn to swallow or you never prove how much you do love the breed.. lol
How come you feel the need to state your opinion on how I feel about anything?
Again you have no idea of what I feel or what I know about with these dogs or anything else.
Have you ever read this statement: "Proof in is the performance"?
Anything else is just idol BS.

"We are allowed our own opinions & view points if we do choose. With all you've done & all you've seen you still don't know it all (no one ever does or ever will, so please don't take that as a knock) & I feel it's OK for us to agree to disagree."

There is one thing clear on this thread, I know a lot more about this line and dogs then you try to appear. This is what really got to you, didn't it? History repeats its self. ))
This is why I don't like posting on billboards much anymore is because everyone is an expert or has an opinion on a matter that they don't have first hand knowledge of.
But what I do know, I know and don't sit around spouting off opinions on matters of which I have no direct knowledge of. I know when people who uses a certain line would like to appear they know more about the line then they do, but they have to be careful that someone else doesn't come along and expose their knowledge.

"But if you really want to share your "facts" (& I am sure you can be a wealth of knowledge when you want to be) I would respectfully suggest you not come across so rudely. As my mother said, you catch more flies w/ honey than you do w/ vinegar & your brusque treatment of others is not going to help you teach anyone anything. "

OHHHHHHHHH here we go again!! Rudely! LOL I can't help laughing at you because you are so thin skin you can't see the sky through the clouds you have made for yourself by letting personalities get in the way.
You need to toughen up that hide if you plan to keep American Gamedogs. ;->

"And as side, note I would like to add, I never put out there that it was a "fact" that Zebo was NOT off Eli. If you will look closely, I said I myself do not believe he is. Nowhere did I used the words "for a fact" I think I am entitled to my belief, should I so choose to have it."

Well, I think it is clear now where and how you based your opinion.
You never saw the dog or any of his sons and daughters or watch them perform to have a in depth opinion of substance.
You never fed or took care of any of these dogs to know their behavior.

"Maybe Zebo was off Eli. But we have no physical proof he was & from what I have seen I myself choose to believe Andy is off Eli, not Zebo. You yourself have conceded there are some who believe this, so there is a chance even if it is slight, that it may be true. However I do not claim it as a fact, just something I personally believe."

No, I really conceded to the fact a guy can never win an argument with a woman. Why try? Point Made. Knowledge Shown, enough said..

"The bottom line is there are many views on Zebo's parentage, but nothing physical, so nothing can be factually proven. As such, we are all free to have our own view points. One man says one thing, another man says another. Who are we to believe? Or do we come to our own conclusion? With no hard physical evidence to actually prove the "fact" in question, we are left to contemplate the answer."

There is no bottom line. There is a line but your lack of knowledge of the breed would never allow you access to the information, your willingness to except it, so why should I bother wasting my time again with you bantering?

 

As for why Clemmons, etc. bred to him, I think they bred to him b/c he was a good box dog. I could be wrong, but don't think it would matter to them if he was off Eli or not. Even if he was bred as his pedigree says he'd still be line bred & would have still nicked w/ their blood.
[/quote]

There were plenty of "good box dogs" back in the era zebo was used and if you look at Mr C program his dogs are eli boze bred dogs back from when he bred up bullyson, eli jr and brendy to the time he retired. Plenty of amazing animals in between that he could have fused in but never were. To state that it wouldn't matter how the dog was bred up in a program such as his is IMO an insult to his program.! Take Care![/quote]

You are so correct.
But also don't forget one of the best of all times he could have bred to as well on David's yard:::
Gr. Ch. Art 7xw...
Who was only at stud for 8 months on David's yard before he was stolen and made R.O.M.

 

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=2313

 

With all due respect. No one is questioning what you know or your creditability. So you have nothing prove. And what your saying could very well be true. However there are still no "hard facts" on this subject. And while your sources on the matter are impeccable it's still only verbal evidence.

Unfortunately in the midst of all that the purpose of this thread was lost. Zebo's sire is irrelevant to this thread IMO. And given your experience and knowledge of the breed your input would be greatly greatly appreciated (If not by everyone for sure by me.). I doubt I'm alone on that. Again no disrespect.


VIC

 

440Rider:I never said I didn't matter what dog he used. Of course it mattered. I just said they IMO chose Zebo b/c he was a good box dog.

IM: Thank you again for your post. I will once again try to respond as best I can.

" You don't, that is for sure. We have done this dance before. To many toes got step on..."

So what you're saying through your smoke screen is that you cannot provide tangible proof then...? With all due respect here, you have no problem acting rudely to the average person, so I find it quite amazing indeed you'd be worried about stepping on anyone's toes when you seem to relish doing it any other time.

"Hold on! Who do you think you are blowing smoke up? Your family? Maybe owned a pet but at that time you weren't."

I never said I was IM. That is why I used the word "vicariously." Might want to look it up sometime.

As for my "pet" she was off 2 very fine bulldogs. Sadly she got killed before she could do anything herself. Were their owners in your "Ohio gang?" Doubt it. But it doesn't stop them from being game bulldogs nonetheless.

I'll prove right here and now how much you know about the Ohio gang. In the 1979 Geo Mag....NAME WHO'S PICTURES ARE IN THERE, WHERE WERE THE PICTURES TAKEN AND WHAT DOGS ARE PICTURED IN IT!!

Sorry IM. No one I knew at the time got that mag & I was not in any "Ohio gang" nor was anyone I knew so far as I know. I doubt the folks who had our dogs ran in your clique. So far as I knew they were just local dog men who appreciated a game dog.

But your mag question has absolutely zero w/ the original question. Your original spout was that I wasn't even in the breed when those dogs were alive, a statement in which you were very much mistaken. Was I out there shaking hands & matching dogs? No. That was left to others. But I was most certainly in the breed, as it was a family affair at that time.

This was National News at the time. If you were in dogs then, tell who had Ch. Diamond Jim when he died or Ch. Jack. Better yet, one of David's closest friends and had one of largest yards of Zebo dogs, hint, last name was Brewer. What was his first name and where did he live and what did he do for a living. Tell what transpired leading up to the Greaser contest which cause Zebo to be entered.

So far I've only directed this towards Zebo bloodline of Ohio. I haven't brought up the rest of the many well known dogmen from the same state, like who owned Ch. Penny Ante? Or what happened at the last show of Art's and who stole him and why? Or better yet, who was the true breeders of Dl. Gr. Ch. Tornado, Ch. Butch, Stripper and owned Ch. Saloon? That is making it easier on you by adding at least 10 years on to when the dogs were around.

Remember this, when you choose to debate or discuss dogs in the Midwest or many parts of this country, if they were in dogs and was about something with the dogs, I knew them. How come you and I never have crossed paths before?

These things can be better answered by you since you have a few years on me.

As for why we have not crossed paths, again I was in the breed vicariously. VICARIOUSLY. Again, look it up if required. I myself was too young to be meeting & greeting or doing any hunting.

Then I'm sure he told you about the connection between Eli and Zebo. If not or he won't then I guess he doesn't feel you need to know or are in the know and it is only for those who know.

I did not ask him about Zebo. I'm sure if asked he would expound on it if he felt like it, but that was not the subject of our conversation.

Modern? You mean watered down or scatter bred versions.

If that's what you want to call it.

The dogs I saw was Zebo himself and dogs sire by him. And if Steve was one of the people who you got your stock from, good luck knowing the truth.

Actually no, SL was not the ones I got the dogs from.

Barney Fife didn't have it that close himself when he started into dogs. Hell, he has passed away so hiding his true name isn't important anymore. Do you even know what his true name was? Who and what kennel he was in partnership with?

Again you would know better than I. My family may have known that but was young at that time. But it still does not answer the question as to why you cannot provide hard physical proof for your "fact."

As for Boudreaux dogs, I'm one of the last people you can BS about the dogs from that line. Also are you comparing the Eli dogs or dogs from his half brother Boze? The stock is as different from day light to dark. Or is it a combo of those 2 crossed into each other?

A combo of the 2, as that is what most of the modern version are now.

BTW how many recognized champions have you ever produced from the Boudreaux dogs?

None. I don't match dogs, remember?

Well here is one thing we know for sure... It didn't take 10 generations for the conformation, color and ill-temperness to show up in both family of dogs. Even in the [] the styles were the same, first 30, shotgun style of dogs...

No, it usually will not take 10 generation in APBT b/c as I mentioned before, most APBTs are inbred or linebred.

As for conformation, color, & ill-temper in my case they are like night & day. My Boudreaux dogs are usually 45-50 lb c.w., shorter leg, black dogs w/ houndy ears who are kind of chesty. My Zebo dogs were usually 30 - 40 lbs c.w., higher leg, red/rednose, black or brindle dogs an ear set like Zebo or Vindy. Neither were ill tempered.

No it just appears that way, as it did in the pass.

Pass? past? What are you trying to say here? :confused:

Look how many times you have posted compared to me.

And that means what? That one of us is more chatty than the other? That one of us has more time on their hands? What?

About every post I ever posted on, you felt the need to put your 2 cents in and make people believe you know more then you do.

If I ever posted after you, I apologize. I should know better than to have an opinion of my own or question the end-all, be-all Iron Mike. (Did I say that out loud? Sorry! )

As for me wanting me to make folks believe I know more than I do, far from it. I post to help. Sometimes it does & sometimes it doesn't. But as for what folks think of me or what I know, to me that is not an issue when I post.

CONT ...

 

You base your information on what you read somewhere or stories or rumors. The difference is, mine are from life experiences and what I saw and know first hand.

Yes, some of my info comes from historical documents. But so does some of yours. You undoubtedly have info you gleaned on dogs from "stories" you read. So why is that a bad thing?

Do you have some first hand experiences that have given you great knowledge? Sure. I don't doubt that one bit. But it still doesn't mean you can "factually" prove who Zebo's sire was. You have your opinion & I have mine & that is OK.

Well, sure to hell wouldn't be the first time..

Wouldn't be for you either. The difference is at least I'm mature enough to admit it! :p

Not really as one of the moderators know, when I start to get upset, you will know it. Not really as one of the moderators know, when I start to get upset, you will know it. I believe in the thread of Dogmen Personalities your style was covered as well. BTW how is the view from the cheap seats? It has been entertaining while playing the sport. If you would have tried it, a better formed opinion you would have...

Perhaps you are right. Maybe your natural personality is one of an cranky old man & you don't get angry at all when folks disagree w/ you. But from my view in the "cheap seats" it appears that you get awful cranky if someone's lips aren't continually compressed to your rear end.

Oh so that is what it is? Your sense of pride? LOL you better learn to swallow or you never prove how much you do love the breed.. lol

??? You've got me on that one.

How come you feel the need to state your opinion on how I feel about anything? Again you have no idea of what I feel or what I know about with these dogs or anything else. Have you ever read this statement: "Proof in is the performance"? Anything else is just idol BS.

No one said anything about you & the dogs. I just said it appears (key word) that you get P.O.'ed if any one dare question or even have a view point differing from that of the "end-all, be-all Iron Mike."And it's "idle" not "idol." Another word for you to hit up in Webster's while you're looking up "vicariously." (lol, sorry couldn't resist! :p)

There is one thing clear on this thread, I know a lot more about this line and dogs then you try to appear. This is what really got to you, didn't it? History repeats its self. ))

Actually, you knowing more than me about something doesn't bother me at all. I love to learn & have a voracious appetite for knowledge. What I don't like is your attitude problem. And yes, no one else here may have the testicular fortitude to say it to you, but I will. You are RUDE. Plain & simple. And that really detracts from your value to the breed. If you acted more like the true gentleman of this game you could really be a true asset. But instead you choose to be a, well, I won't say b/c it is not nice word.

This is why I don't like posting on billboards much anymore is because everyone is an expert or has an opinion on a matter that they don't have first hand knowledge of. But what I do know, I know
and don't sit around spouting off opinions on matters of which I have no direct knowledge of.

What is wrong w/ having an opinion? Last time I looked, nothing.

As for first hand knowledge, you may have first hand knowledge of a lot of things, but according to you, you do not have first hand knowledge of the subject at hand. All you posted was "he said, she said" which is not first hand knowledge.

I know when people who uses a certain line would like to appear they know more about the line then they do, but they have to be careful that someone else doesn't come along and expose their knowledge.

There is nothing wrong w/ exposing knowledge. I think sharing knowledge is wonderful. And your backhanded insult is not going to work on me. If you know more, share it in a helpful way. Don't be a rude (insert word here).Sheesh. Some people's children. :rolleyes:

OHHHHHHHHH here we go again!! Rudely! LOL I can't help laughing at you because you are so thin skin you can't see the sky through the clouds you have made for yourself by letting personalities get in the way. You need to toughen up that hide if you plan to keep American Gamedogs. ;->

Yes, I said rudely. Because sadly, that is what you have shown me you are. Rude.

And why should I toughen up my hide? No fancier should be expected to tolerate rude behaviour from anyone. Used to, the sport was a gentleman's sport & these dogs were gentleman's dogs. But sadly that is no more & you display that ever so clearly w/ your poor behaviour toward other people.

Well, I think it is clear now where and how you based your opinion.
You never saw the dog or any of his sons and daughters or watch them perform to have a in depth opinion of substance. You never fed or took care of any of these dogs to know their behavior.

No, I never fed or took care of them. But how does that go back to your being able to prove your claim w/ physical evidence...? The fact is, no matter how long you rant or deflect the questions you cannot. Nor can I. That is why I said all we can do is contemplate it & come to your own conclusion. Your conclusion is different than mine. Big deal. You're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. But w/o hard physical evidence, nothing can be stated as "fact."

No, I really conceded to the fact a guy can never win an argument with a woman. Why try? Point Made. Knowledge Shown, enough said..

You sure are trying awful hard though!

But seriously, let's brush your sexist remark aside. (And thank you for exposing your true colors. Now I know not only are you rude, you're sexist too. How nice. :rolleyes The fact is we have a difference of opinion. Why have a big hissy fit over it? You could be right. I could be right. Neither of us can prove we're right, so why fight about it?

There is no bottom line. There is a line but your lack of knowledge of the breed would never allow you access to the information, your willingness to except it, so why should I bother wasting my time again with you bantering?

Sure there is a bottom line. There is always a bottom line. And there is always a line to one's lack of knowledge, to include mine & yours as well. You like to purport yourself as the end-all & be-all but you are not.

As I mentioned before, you cannot (or will not, but probably cannot) prove your assertion is a hard fact. You believe one thing, I believe another, but IMO it's all good. We're all entitled to our own opinions. As for why you like to waste your time bantering, maybe it's the woman in you.

TheVictor: Great post & I could not have said it better myself.

 

A performance dog, Stepp's Willie, of course.

 

About this "color discussion".. I've never heard about some Zebo dog that wasn't black, black with a bit of white or deep dark brindle... perhaps, genetically if an inbreeding of black dogs is made, the dog can shows some recessive characteristics... in theory even gray.

 

Peds online number 64118..

Tck's Ch.Ranger..The top side is heavy Zebo (via Panther)..This dog is old (10-11?)but from what I recently heard is still producing..In his day he was First Class for sure..

If anyone has had the opportunity to listen to the interview with TM that was done by RB (and was/is availible via the PBR) you will hear TM speak about this dog..As a matter of fact he said he was one of the best dogs in the country in his opinion,and that he was intending on breeding some of his Panther females to him..Not sure if that ever happened,but Ranger's owner told me the same thing..

 

"IM: Thank you again for your post. I will once again try to respond as best I can.

" You don't, that is for sure. We have done this dance before. To many toes got step on..."

So what you're saying through your smoke screen is that you cannot provide tangible proof then...? With all due respect here, you have no problem acting rudely to the average person, so I find it quite amazing indeed you'd be worried about stepping on anyone's toes when you seem to relish doing it any other time. "

Proof, since you claim to have been in dogs all these years, of all people you should know they didn't do DNA testing of dogs back then.
I stated the people names and to the point of who stole Eli.
I named the people in the know and still you try to appear, as well as others, to know about these dogs more then the people who were around them and fed them. Old timers who when they crap will forget more then you will ever know and still not good enough. This is what I meant about you will never be willing to except it.

Here we go again, RUDELY, how many more times can you write it? lol
Whaaaaaaaa, dam girl, grow up and quit whinning on how people respond just because it doesn't flatter your opinion..
My reference to the dance is, we have went through this on other boards many times before, need we do it again? Don't play like this is the first time you ever heard this.



This was National News at the time. If you were in dogs then, tell who had Ch. Diamond Jim when he died or Ch. Jack. Better yet, one of David's closest friends and had one of largest yards of Zebo dogs, hint, last name was Brewer. What was his first name and where did he live and what did he do for a living. Tell what transpired leading up to the Greaser contest which cause Zebo to be entered.

So far I've only directed this towards Zebo bloodline of Ohio. I haven't brought up the rest of the many well known dogmen from the same state, like who owned Ch. Penny Ante? Or what happened at the last show of Art's and who stole him and why? Or better yet, who was the true breeders of Dl. Gr. Ch. Tornado, Ch. Butch, Stripper and owned Ch. Saloon? That is making it easier on you by adding at least 10 years on to when the dogs were around.

Remember this, when you choose to debate or discuss dogs in the Midwest or many parts of this country, if they were in dogs and was about something with the dogs, I knew them. How come you and I never have crossed paths before?

These things can be better answered by you since you have a few years on me.


Hold on, don't crawfish on your statement of being into the dogs: albeit vicariously and not be abile to answer any of this...

As for why we have not crossed paths, again I was in the breed vicariously. VICARIOUSLY. Again, look it up if required. I myself was too young to be meeting & greeting or doing any hunting.

As I said, I know what it means and for you to make that kind of claim,, then we all can that ever watch Spanky and Our Gang! lmao!
To young, I knew that and that is how I knew you knew nothing of what went on at the time with Zebo or dogs he sired to make an informed claim of how you think the dog might have been bred...:p

Then I'm sure he told you about the connection between Eli and Zebo. If not or he won't then I guess he doesn't feel you need to know or are in the know and it is only for those who know.

I did not ask him about Zebo. I'm sure if asked he would expound on it if he felt like it, but that was not the subject of our conversation.

Are you in politics? Because you sure know how to side step the questions put directly to you!
For someone who feeds the line and has heard the opinion of Zebo being off Eli and you never asked the man right out? Okay what ever. I guess he didn't know you well enough to bring it up after you told him the bloodline you fed.

4 years ago, about 20 well known dogmen walk into his yard and someone asked how the dogs were bred. You could tell he didn't want to say right out but I pointed out all the dogs which had Boze in them and he punch me in the arm laughing and saying "I knew you would know"
So as I said before in the old reference to gamedogs, "for those who know"..
Well, you can't say you weren't told now and by someone who was around the dogs and dogmen of that era. Also told you who did know and who stole what and who owned what...

Modern? You mean watered down or scatter bred versions.

If that's what you want to call it.

What else would you call it when it was so many generations removed?

The dogs I saw was Zebo himself and dogs sire by him. And if Steve was one of the people who you got your stock from, good luck knowing the truth.

Actually no, SL was not the ones I got the dogs from.

hummmmmm maybe sometimes you do use what God put on your shoulders...smart woman...

Barney Fife didn't have it that close himself when he started into dogs. Hell, he has passed away so hiding his true name isn't important anymore. Do you even know what his true name was? Who and what kennel he was in partnership with?

Again you would know better than I. My family may have known that but was young at that time. But it still does not answer the question as to why you cannot provide hard physical proof for your "fact."

Come on, he didn't die that long ago.. In fact he doctored Gr. Ch. Buck after one of his shows. BTW what well known dogs did this legendary family of yours own?
Well I think everyone can tell by now how little you really know about the dogs back then to have any informed opinion on any dogs from that era.
Since DNA was NOT available, then all we can go by is what people saw and they have a lot more creditability then you or your family about these dogs. Believe what you want and since you know it all and continue to rudely correct people who trys to clear up the history of the dogs and people like yourself just want to muddy the water, so be it...

As for Boudreaux dogs, I'm one of the last people you can BS about the dogs from that line. Also are you comparing the Eli dogs or dogs from his half brother Boze? The stock is as different from day light to dark. Or is it a combo of those 2 crossed into each other?

A combo of the 2, as that is what most of the modern version are now.

Maybe yours, but not mine, Check wasn't and neither was Traxlor's Ox 2xw.

BTW how many recognized champions have you ever produced from the Boudreaux dogs?

None. I don't match dogs, remember?

Why don't you practice what you preach?
Try comprehending what you read....
Where did I ask if you matched any dogs?
I said PRODUCED!
As in producing Untouchables' Ch. Cotton, Bulldog's Ch. Earl, etc...
Another good political side stepping of the questions..

 

"Hold on! Who do you think you are blowing smoke up? Your family? Maybe owned a pet but at that time you weren't."

I never said I was IM. That is why I used the word "vicariously." Might want to look it up sometime.

""As for myself, I do dearly hate to disappoint but yes, I was "in the breed" albeit vicariously when these dogs were alive. My family had Colby dogs & the very first dog I ever had was an APBT.""

I knoiw what it means, albeit=Even if-although. Vicariously= acting on behalf of some else or in place of.

And I will say again, maybe some relative owned a pet but it still doesn't make it where you were into the dogs or knew anything about this line of dogs at this time. Back in the 60's and early 70's just about every dog in the Midwest was from the Colby line of Neblett, Hetrick, Walter K., etc.
If this qualifies you then I make claim to everything my grandfather and great uncles owned, like Petie McCoy off Burwell's Jeb and Neblett's Beanie McCoy, etc.

"As for my "pet" she was off 2 very fine bulldogs. Sadly she got killed before she could do anything herself. Were their owners in your "Ohio gang?" Doubt it. But it doesn't stop them from being game bulldogs nonetheless."

As Don would say, "the Core". I was there so I knew they weren't.
Only way a dog to be considered game is it to prove it and since they weren't in the core... that is your claim and since Colby has had a low percentage of gamedogs in them since WW2 after John P. died, that claim is harder to prove.
So I guess it is safe to say with your analogy of involvement with the breed was one of the Dogmen Personalies of "Or leaches who are hang-arounders of the true campaigners and make like they were part of the main core of that posse."????

Orrrr "My favorites are the clowns who brags on their bloodline they own but has never done anything themselves to add recognition to the line.
But yet sets in judgment of dog people who have!
You have risked it all by putting it on the line.
"Remember the next best thing to playing and winning is, playing and losing, but you have to play to win."????

I'll prove right here and now how much you know about the Ohio gang. In the 1979 Geo Mag....NAME WHO'S PICTURES ARE IN THERE, WHERE WERE THE PICTURES TAKEN AND WHAT DOGS ARE PICTURED IN IT!!

Sorry IM. No one I knew at the time got that mag & I was not in any "Ohio gang" nor was anyone I knew so far as I know. I doubt the folks who had our dogs ran in your clique. So far as I knew they were just local dog men who appreciated a game dog.

National Geographic?????? what line of BS is this?
You could buy it off any News Stand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
now you just proved how little you really know the breed back then.

But your mag question has absolutely zero w/ the original question. Your original spout was that I wasn't even in the breed when those dogs were alive, a statement in which you were very much mistaken. Was I out there shaking hands & matching dogs? No. That was left to others. But I was most certainly in the breed, as it was a family affair at that time.

You are more full of crap then a Christmas Turkey..
You weren't in the dogs and you have no factual proof you were...
BY you not ansering and responding to the questions I asked proves back then you didn't even know which end to clip the lead on.
I hear you saying all this stuff with no proof to any of it as I did with the "Story of the Unknown Dogman" which Floyd confirmed!!!
No registration papers in your name, No pictures of adds in mags, no books with your dogs in them or on the cover back in the 70's.

Your history in the breed is so lame that you couldn't even name Carver's
Stompinoto who was the black and white dog running WFO on a Lemm Mill in the Geo Mag. You know what is really funny? You couldn't even tell it was Zebo on the cover!

 

This was National News at the time. If you were in dogs then, tell who had Ch. Diamond Jim when he died or Ch. Jack. Better yet, one of David's closest friends and had one of largest yards of Zebo dogs, hint, last name was Brewer. What was his first name and where did he live and what did he do for a living. Tell what transpired leading up to the Greaser contest which cause Zebo to be entered.

So far I've only directed this towards Zebo bloodline of Ohio. I haven't brought up the rest of the many well known dogmen from the same state, like who owned Ch. Penny Ante? Or what happened at the last show of Art's and who stole him and why? Or better yet, who was the true breeders of Dl. Gr. Ch. Tornado, Ch. Butch, Stripper and owned Ch. Saloon? That is making it easier on you by adding at least 10 years on to when the dogs were around.

Remember this, when you choose to debate or discuss dogs in the Midwest or many parts of this country, if they were in dogs and was about something with the dogs, I knew them. How come you and I never have crossed paths before?

These things can be better answered by you since you have a few years on me.


Hold on, don't crawfish on your statement of being into the dogs: albeit vicariously and not be abile to answer any of this...

As for why we have not crossed paths, again I was in the breed vicariously. VICARIOUSLY. Again, look it up if required. I myself was too young to be meeting & greeting or doing any hunting.

I as I said, I know what it means and for you to make that kind of claim,, then we all can that ever watch Spanky and Our Gang! lmao!
To young, I knew that and that is how I knew you knew nothing of what went on at the time with Zebo or dogs he sired to make an informed claim of how you think the dog might have been bred...:p

Then I'm sure he told you about the connection between Eli and Zebo. If not or he won't then I guess he doesn't feel you need to know or are in the know and it is only for those who know.

I did not ask him about Zebo. I'm sure if asked he would expound on it if he felt like it, but that was not the subject of our conversation.

Are you in politics? Because you sure know how to side step the questions put directly to you!
For someone who feeds the line and has heard the opinion of Zebo being off Eli and you never asked the man right out? Okay what ever. I guess he didn't know you well enough to bring it up after you told him the bloodline you fed.

4 years ago, about 20 well known dogmen walk into his yard and someone asked how the dogs were bred. You could tell he didn't want to say right out but I pointed out all the dogs which had Boze in them and he punch me in the arm laughing and saying "I knew you would know"
So as I said before in the old reference to gamedogs, "for those who know"..
Well, you can't say you weren't told now and by someone who was around the dogs and dogmen of that era. Also told you who did know and who stole what and who owned what...

Modern? You mean watered down or scatter bred versions.

If that's what you want to call it.

What else would you call it when it was so many generations removed?

The dogs I saw was Zebo himself and dogs sire by him. And if Steve was one of the people who you got your stock from, good luck knowing the truth.

Actually no, SL was not the ones I got the dogs from.

hummmmmm maybe sometimes you do use what God put on your shoulders...smart woman...

Barney Fife didn't have it that close himself when he started into dogs. Hell, he has passed away so hiding his true name isn't important anymore. Do you even know what his true name was? Who and what kennel he was in partnership with?

Again you would know better than I. My family may have known that but was young at that time. But it still does not answer the question as to why you cannot provide hard physical proof for your "fact."

Come on, he didn't die that long ago.. In fact he doctored Gr. Ch. Buck after one of his shows. BTW what well known dogs did this legendary family of yours own?
Well I think everyone can tell by now how little you really know about the dogs back then to have any informed opinion on any dogs from that era.
Since DNA was NOT available, then all we can go by is what people saw and they have a lot more creditability then you or your family about these dogs. Believe what you want and since you know it all and continue to rudely correct people who trys to clear up the history of the dogs and people like yourself just want to muddy the water, so be it...

As for Boudreaux dogs, I'm one of the last people you can BS about the dogs from that line. Also are you comparing the Eli dogs or dogs from his half brother Boze? The stock is as different from day light to dark. Or is it a combo of those 2 crossed into each other?

A combo of the 2, as that is what most of the modern version are now.

Maybe yours, but not mine, Check wasn't and neither was Traxlor's Ox 2xw.

 

BTW how many recognized champions have you ever produced from the Boudreaux dogs?

None. I don't match dogs, remember?

Why don't you practice what you preach?
Try comprehending what you read....
Where did I ask if you matched any dogs?
I said PRODUCED!
As in producing Untouchables' Ch. Cotton, Bulldog's Ch. Earl, etc...
Another good political side stepping of the questions..

Well here is one thing we know for sure... It didn't take 10 generations for the conformation, color and ill-temperness to show up in both family of dogs. Even in the [] the styles were the same, first 30, shotgun style of dogs...

No, it usually will not take 10 generation in APBT b/c as I mentioned before, most APBTs are inbred or linebred.

As for conformation, color, & ill-temper in my case they are like night & day. My Boudreaux dogs are usually 45-50 lb c.w., shorter leg, black dogs w/ houndy ears who are kind of chesty. My Zebo dogs were usually 30 - 40 lbs c.w., higher leg, red/rednose, black or brindle dogs an ear set like Zebo or Vindy. Neither were ill tempered.

Oh God, you are as green as grass. Now I am feeling ashamed confronting you on your knowledge.
Most are eh? As in the top R.O.M. female Ch. Honey Bunch? Could you please tell me all about those line breeding and inbreeding that was done with her?
I can tell right now you have never seen his yard. Most all of his Boze blood was buckskin or red.
BTW 4 months before all his dogs were put down, only a hand full was below 50 lbs. C.W.

Zebo never produced a red/red nose unless it was from the female he was bred too. Vindicator or Rosie had to bred into the Zebo blood to get red.
Both Eli and Zebo produced Man Bitters. Name a dog sire by them that wasn't? Bullyson was to bad Bobby was even scared of him.
Ch. Diamond Jim eat his way through the bathroom door to attack his owner and wife and child...

 

"No it just appears that way, as it did in the pass.

Pass? past? What are you trying to say here? :confused:

Must we go through this again on another board as we did on your old board? I can see my memory is much better then yours..

Look how many times you have posted compared to me.

And that means what? That one of us is more chatty than the other? That one of us has more time on their hands? What?

I don't go around trolling after your posts looking for a debate. Now you got one and you are in over your head with your lack of knowledge.

About every post I ever posted on, you felt the need to put your 2 cents in and make people believe you know more then you do.

If I ever posted after you, I apologize. I should know better than to have an opinion of my own or question the end-all, be-all Iron Mike. (Did I say that out loud? Sorry! )

You wanted it, you got it. All you can do is come back with smart ass remarks because you couldn't answer any of my questions about the dogs or the people from that era.

As for me wanting me to make folks believe I know more than I do, far from it. I post to help. Sometimes it does & sometimes it doesn't. But as for what folks think of me or what I know, to me that is not an issue when I post.

Then why do you still have to ramble on about things you have no first hand knowledge of?

 

ABK;276562]You base your information on what you read somewhere or stories or rumors. The difference is, mine are from life experiences and what I saw and know first hand.

Yes, some of my info comes from historical documents. But so does some of yours. You undoubtedly have info you gleaned on dogs from "stories" you read. So why is that a bad thing?

No sorry dearly but mine isn't. Nice try but your BS don't float with me.
I was there and know what I saw.
When you are confronted about the truth and how long you have been into the dogs your statement "My Family" my ass.
Once again, what was those famous dog your legendary family had?

Do you have some first hand experiences that have given you great knowledge? Sure. I don't doubt that one bit. But it still doesn't mean you can "factually" prove who Zebo's sire was. You have your opinion & I have mine & that is OK.

No, I stated who was in the know and even to the point of who stole Eli.
Since DNA wasn't around back then and you know it, then you have to go by the people I named who are much more creditable then you or your family.

Well, sure to hell wouldn't be the first time..

Wouldn't be for you either. The difference is at least I'm mature enough to admit it! :p

So far you haven't been!! as always...:rolleyes:

 

Not really as one of the moderators know, when I start to get upset, you will know it. Not really as one of the moderators know, when I start to get upset, you will know it. I believe in the thread of Dogmen Personalities your style was covered as well. BTW how is the view from the cheap seats? It has been entertaining while playing the sport. If you would have tried it, a better formed opinion you would have...

Perhaps you are right. Maybe your natural personality is one of an cranky old man & you don't get angry at all when folks disagree w/ you. But from my view in the "cheap seats" it appears that you get awful cranky if someone's lips aren't continually compressed to your rear end.

And your is a know it all brat that doesn't know which end to clip the lead.
As I stated before you personality has already been cover under the part about "Possie".

Oh so that is what it is? Your sense of pride? LOL you better learn to swallow or you never prove how much you do love the breed.. lol

??? You've got me on that one.

That was real hard with such an intellectual as yourself

 

How come you feel the need to state your opinion on how I feel about anything? Again you have no idea of what I feel or what I know about with these dogs or anything else. Have you ever read this statement: "Proof in is the performance"? Anything else is just idol BS.

No one said anything about you & the dogs. I just said it appears (key word) that you get P.O.'ed if any one dare question or even have a view point differing from that of the "end-all, be-all Iron Mike."And it's "idle" not "idol." Another word for you to hit up in Webster's while you're looking up "vicariously." (lol, sorry couldn't resist! :p)

I knew you would respond to that, that is why I spelled that way as in "idol worshiping"
Now if you want to see who has the elementary level of intellectual understanding and comprehension and who has the ability to elevate their selves to a point of superiority of the English language and sentence structure, continue with your RUDE corrections and I will start to point out yours as well.
Mine wasn't a correction. I used it in the context for the meaning I wanted.
You are so pompous I knew you jump on to it and make a fool of yourself. LOL

There is one thing clear on this thread, I know a lot more about this line and dogs then you try to appear. This is what really got to you, didn't it? History repeats its self. ))

Actually, you knowing more than me about something doesn't bother me at all. I love to learn & have a voracious appetite for knowledge. What I don't like is your attitude problem. And yes, no one else here may have the testicular fortitude to say it to you, but I will. You are RUDE. Plain & simple. And that really detracts from your value to the breed. If you acted more like the true gentleman of this game you could really be a true asset. But instead you choose to be a, well, I won't say b/c it is not nice word.

Please don't allow your menstasuial time shine trough. I might appear rude to you and but there is a word for a female dog which might apply to your attitude.:cool:
The only thing we saw here is how you react when the truth comes out that you have no knowledge to base an opinon on. The con was exposed...
How do you like it?:p

This is why I don't like posting on billboards much anymore is because everyone is an expert or has an opinion on a matter that they don't have first hand knowledge of. But what I do know, I know
and don't sit around spouting off opinions on matters of which I have no direct knowledge of.

What is wrong w/ having an opinion? Last time I looked, nothing.

Nothing when it is a knowledgeble opinion that doesn't hide or confuse the issues as you often do..

 

As for first hand knowledge, you may have first hand knowledge of a lot of things, but according to you, you do not have first hand knowledge of the subject at hand. All you posted was "he said, she said" which is not first hand knowledge.

No I stated names of people alive to ask and I even went to the point of who took the dog (Eli).
All you've done is post an off the wall opinions about a bloodline you never even seen the foundation stock that started the line!!

I know when people who uses a certain line would like to appear they know more about the line then they do, but they have to be careful that someone else doesn't come along and expose their knowledge.

There is nothing wrong w/ exposing knowledge. I think sharing knowledge is wonderful. And your backhanded insult is not going to work on me. If you know more, share it in a helpful way. Don't be a rude (insert word here).Sheesh. Some people's children. :rolleyes:

Oh grow up D. The only thing in these dogs you could ever expose is yourself and the lack of knowledge you have.
You name drop people who wouldn't even give you the time of day.
BTW I don't backhand. I use a closed hand...
When I insult you, you will know it.
Your insecurities are showing so bad right now you can hardly stand it.
The expose of your inept knowledge of the dogs in general and your ability to learn has clearly clouded any rational thought you might be ability to find in a feeble mind.

You will never except what others know as the truth, your willingness to see what is clearly in front of you has blinded your thinking of any other possibilities no matter who tells what they know first hand.
So long as you have as an out, DNA, God himself I doubt you would believe if God said he saw it himself.

 

As I mentioned before, you cannot (or will not, but probably cannot) prove your assertion is a hard fact. You believe one thing, I believe another, but IMO it's all good. We're all entitled to our own opinions. As for why you like to waste your time bantering, maybe it's the woman in you.

History is the way it is, from the people who was there and if you have doubt then that is your problem because the people who know the truth, you couldn't even hold the leash of one of their dogs.
When the time comes and history of the breed is continued to be discuss and the people who owned them, you won't even be a foot note to these people.
After all these so called years you claim you have been in the dogs, you have done nothing. Once again Dogmen Personalities covers people like yourself.
You are such an ego maniac you really think your opinion out weights the information stated by these great dogmen?

You are a sad case in your own world..
That must be the Butch in you....:p