embarking on a couple experiments

ok when i was speaking of the first dogs that was 17 yrs ago.... the dog my mother has now is a staffshire terrier she has papers.... she is not from her ex's litters my mother purchesed shasta 3 yrs ago and she was breed with a staffshire who is papered...my codie is not mix you just misunderstood me..... and my moms dog is a her not a he....i was speaking of the dog her ex rescued 17 yrs ago...and as for the skin....the vet was the one that told my mothers ex that the dogs grew out of there skin...it wasn't a assumption of our own....unless the vet was makeing assumptions of his own..dora

 

A 'staffshire terrier' you say? Never seen one of those before. If your dog codie is not a mix, what breed is he? He is no 'staffshire terrier' I can tell you that much haha

 

ok sence i have to be more specific lol.....codie is a stafford shire terrier ...and btw blitz codie is female...lol...dora

 

But Ironline kennels did NOT show or hunt either of those dogs. They were owned by someone else then Ironline bought them back after their careers were finished. And ironline certainly does not breed for show..he saw top dogs he produced then bought them back to build on his line.. i know they took Gambler a few times before his passing away ..

another dog is Ironlines Missouri jim who has won quite a few ribbons in the show ring, too..

 

Then you are trying to change what the APBT is supposed to look like..

 

ok, first, no, the red dog is not my dwarf, that is RUDY, my male red red nose out of ofrn, and red boy lines, my dwarfs pic didnt show up, here is my website, and you can see her on the females page.

http://www.freewebs.com/dhcrewkennels/

as for the rest, yes i want to change the way game dogs look. i have seen some very good looking dogs out there, and i have seen some that look like hound dog mixes. i want the amstaff look with the game dog game, and remember, no matter how much you all want to deny it, THEY ALL CAME FROM THE SAME FOUNDATIONS they all even looked alike until the AKC closed the stud books.,

and you will find CH snooty ROM in richard strattons book "the american pit bull terrier."

you can all be as closed minded as you want, and it will change nothing, the pit bull is changing, and you cannot stop it. in some ways i think that for their survival as a breed they will have to change. soon there will only be the show type dogs left, if you want to save gameness, then you all better start thinking about making sure your dogs will win shows as well.

i know the purpose and the history of gameness, but dog fighting is illegal now, i do not fight my dogs, never have never will, and no one else should be either, so, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF GAMENESS, when there are many other desireable traits in the APBT that should also be focused on, such as its fearlessness, determination, loyalty, its stubborness, its ability to keep thinking it is winning, its courage, and intelligence, its willingness to please its human companion,its sense of humor, and its strength, and strength of character. or its undeniable good looks, (at least in some bloodlines)

all of these traits are to be desired in the APBT, and they all, every one of them add up to GAMENESS in my opinion.

 

Dhcrew, The qualities you list while all desirable, do not add up to gameness. Many other non-game breeds possess these same charateristics to varying degrees, but are NOT game.

My Daddy used to have a saying that I think pertains to this..."if it aint broke, dont try to fix it."

 

dh- I can see why you would want to do that...I've considered the same thing myself (only I could never justify experimental breeding in a time like this). Really though, the standard is based on what GAME dogs look like. The only reason we've gotten bigger "bullier" dogs is because breeders don't know what they are doing and judges don't know what to look for. The standard calls for a dog that looks just like Buck, not those Gaff dogs you speak of (ICK...I would NEVER reccomend using a Gaff dog as your goal...besides that they are a puppy mill very few of their dogs are correct). Seriously, as a few other folks have said, if you want a good show dog who is game, get a game dog who has proper conformation.

 

oh.....but your dwarf "apbt" looks & sounds like (from your description) like a Staffordshire Bull Terrier so there again history has one up on you

 

im so very sorry, but look at my baby gurl again, then look up a picture of a real staffordshire bull terrier, and then tell me again what she looks like.


she is not too different from a standard 16 inch dog (as per the ADBA standard for female apbt) her body is the same size, but her legs are 3 inches shorter.


and im not trying to "fix" anything, every breeder has their own goal, and picture of what they want to produce, i will follow mine.

and my girl newports blood i think is mostly done through nevada dogs, with a gaff dog as foundation.

 

not to be rude, but good luck & my condolences to the true apbt fanciers out there due to anyone who helps you ruin this breed by making them midgets. look at what's become of the english bulldog due to it's body structure & now tons of health probs that came about from people "just wanting to make it's legs shorter". we don't need any Pitdoodles & pek-a-pits & shih-pits. why not devote your efforts to helping the breed remain true? dwarfism is a genetic defect & definitely not a good one to establish a breed upon.

I'm sorry if you don't agree w/me or any of the other people, but you change the apbt & still want to call it an apbt & breed it as an apbt & make money by selling them as apbts when they're not.

 

dwarfism as a genetic defect is ONLY present in the alaskan malamute. she is not a genetic dwarf, she is simply a short pit. i dont see the problem with breeding her only with other short pits to produce a short bloodline. and establish a foundation. and dont be sorry i dont agree with you, it is a free country and we are free to disagree. but do not EVER accuse me of endangering this breed of dog. have you rescued any apbts from the local aspca recently, i make this a common occurance, not to mention retraining "problem dogs" so they can have a second chance. at least i am not populating the world with "game bred" dogs for street thugs to abuse, neglect, and drive crazy so they go out and attack the first thing that runs from them, those are the people you should be angry with. i realize that some dog men and women do not sell to the general public, and nor do i, i do sell a few pups from my litters, but most i place so i can watch them. i have never made any money doing what i do, in fact my dog adventures have cost me over 20,000 dollars in four years. so while i understand where you are all coming from, i can assure you all, that i sleep very well at night.

 

As a matter of fact, I have. I teamed up w/a friend & fellow apbt lover to start the Louisiana APBT Rescue. Check us out on www.petfinder.com if you don't believe me. And in addition to fostering these dogs & paying for medical treatments including spaying & neutering, I have kept 2 of them (Sukari & Dakota); they are completely deaf & were bred for their white color (what's wrong w/doing that besides the fact that health probs also come along w/this). They spent the first 4 months of their lives chained up on chains that weighed more than they do. They were to be euthanized due issues associated w/lack of socialization & neglect until I stepped in to keep them. I also take several of the dogs in foster to obedience classes to help them get a jump start. I take pride in this work.

Nor am I. When & if I do breed, I strive to keep the dog true to form & temperament. I keep 3/4 of the litters or they usually go to firiends homes that also use them for catch dogs, or weight pull dogs, & even as family pets. The ones that go as pets are spayed/neuters no buts about it. I do NOT use these dogs for illegal purposes, but my brothers lives DO depend on the athleticism, determination, & drive of this breed when it comes to boar hunting. I harness their drive & gameness on an animal that has only 1 goal in life: to kill whatever is in its way. Have you ever had a run in w/a wild boar? Then watch Old Yeller & tell me dogs should not be used for this. And if you think this breed is the only breed that enjoys "going after whatever runs from it" then you are mistaken. Dog aggression & small animal aggression is found in every terrier breed & many of the others as well.

Neither have I. Money is not an issue when it comes to my dogs. That's why I, the owner, have a job.

I would love to see some literature stating that fact. As a certified Vet. Tech. (NSU-Nachitoches) having a bachelor's in Pre-Physical Therapy/Exercise Science (SLU) & almost finished w/my masters in Endocrinologhy (LSU) this is the first I've heard of this. In school, we studied the case of a catahoula pup who was affected by chondrodysplasia (dwarfism--normal head & body, but short, stumpy legs...hmmm). Inherited chondrodysplasia is thought to be an autosomal recessive trait. Dwarfism can also occur b/c of delevopemental abnormalities of the pituitary gland. Although this defect can be likely to affect one breed over another, it's not restricted to one breed. And there are currently other studies being done on various breeds i.e. the Cheasapeke Bay Retriever, GSD, Weimeriner, Cocker Spaniel, etc.

While I understand that miniatures are created by just breeding a small dog to another small dog (although many breed dwarfs to dwarfs & hope the recessive trait carries on), it takes many, many generations & an adapt knowledge of genetics. So study, study, study. Check out toy poodles & yorkies & poms & learn what genetic alterations are being done to get these mini dogs & also learn healthwise what it has done. We see more neurological, skeletal, & cardiological probs w/these minis than the "normal" size breed.

 

one more thing, you yourself stated that you had a "dwarf" pit bull. So why did you go back & contradict yourself? By that statement it seemed to me that you knew your purpose was to "create" dogs w/this genetic defect all for the "love" of the breed, so that's why I responded like I did.

 

Nice informative post, Miakoda.

 

Now that was a fucking infomative response! Gotta love it. lol dhcrew have you ever heard of the Swinford Bandogge? This is what came from people with much more knowledge & experience with this breed than most will ever have. & the concept failed miserably. There have been many attemps to improve upon this breed, they have all come up short. Please reconsider. Put some of that drive and determination into something positive. Like breeding Champion Show stock. Or excelling in weight-pulling, or maybe trying to branch out into flyball or agility work. I don't think this many people would so adamately disagree with you if there was anything postive in your plans!

 

ok, here is the title, author and year printed for the book i got the dwarfism information from :Breeding a litter by Beth J Finder Harris copyright 1993. just so you know i didnt pull that out of my as*.

i call my short dogs dwarf because it sounds cute, and ALL of them do weight pull, weight pull is my whole purpose for the short dogs, (they compete in the smaller weight classes, and thus win easily)

i comend you on all the rescue work you do, i too have done my share and it is the hardest thing i do.

im not going to go any shorter with my short line, im only going to keep them between 13-15 inches, and heavy, 38-45lbs.

i would love for my dogs to have the opportunity to prove themselves on the hunt, but in AZ there is no call for hog hunting, and i PERSONALLY do not believe that a pit should be used for schutzhund. due to their sometime refusal to quit when worked up. you know their inherent "gameness".

i would love the opportunity to go on a hunt with my dogs, and we do have wild pigs here, and i dont think it is even legal to hunt them, they live in the refuge.

so barring all that, i simply decided that i would show my other line, but i still dont want to loose the gameness that makes them what they are and that is the absolute best breed of dog out there. i also believe that pit bulls make excellent pets, as well as working animals and i dont have a problem with someone EDUCATING themselves and purchasing or adopting one just FOR A PET which i get the feeling you all or most of you disagree with.

im sorry if i came off wrong, i didnt intend too, but none of you know me, or my dogs, you have never seen them perform, so how could you judge them? because you all think you are so much better than every other pit bull lover out there because you have "game" dogs?


whatever

 

What made you decide to want to do this and why would you go through with it? There have been other people who have attempted and who have done that already? Have you considered buying a pup or dog that has been breed like that?

 

When it comes to veterinary medicine (or medicine in general), that is way out of date. Only an anatomy book can stay true for that length of time. Do some current research.

The first thing that are right that everyone on this sight has different views & ideas on the many uses of this breed. There are some that want & insist that they be working dogs first, pets second. Then there are those that show there dogs in confirmation classes in sanctioned events. And there are those that believe that a pit bull can be a wonderful family pet not having any other purpose other than that of keeping the kids faces cleaned of leftovers & making sure the cushions on the couch never get cold. But even most of us can calmly agree to disagree on this topic & still put the APBT first no matter what purpose they serve to us. We are all here to learn more about this breed whether it's nutritional info, health care info, breeding info, temperament info, gameness info, catch dog info, etc. & even just to chat w/fellow dog owners. But what we all agree to put first is the breed itself & the standards to which that breed has been designed to follow. While some of us don't like to talk/hear about dog fighting today, we cannot deny it's history. B/c they were bred to fight is actually why we have this great temperamented, people loving, clown-like bulldog todayw/a drive to please its owners so high, that no other breed can compare. and b/c no sane person would want to be inside a "pit" w/2 fighting dogs, these are the only breed of dog that had the generations of culling out the "man-biters". Those dogs were usually put down as well as any off-spring showing the same tendency. The other thing this great dog was bred for & has is a structure & build of a true working dog w/only minute health problems. Very, very rarely do you see hip dysplasia, patella subluxations, heart abnormalities, cranial abnormalities, conjunctivitis, & so on that many other pure bred dogs have. & why are these different? They were not bred to be a certain height & weight, to have a head so many inches around, to be of one particular desired color, to have legs only so many inches long. These are the reasons why you see so many health problems in all the other breeds. Only the healthiest of body & mind were bred all these generations. & who cares if they're dog aggressive? It is NOT related to human aggression & I'd gladly take this any day over dog bred for protection (to naturally be wary of strangers) or those yappy little dogs who bite b/c they are allowed to since hey, it doesn't hurt that much. If you can't handle dog on dog aggression, get a cat. To sum this all up, we are fighting an uphill battle to keep this breed true to form & function (see many functions mentioned above) and you say that you love the breed, but how can you honestly love the APBT when you want to change not only its behaviour but also it's looks? If you want short, squatty, can pull hard, & rarely shows or has the energy to show dog aggression (i stil say a cat would be best), then get an English Bulldog. It seems that those who created that breed also had your idea of "love" & destruction. That is if you can afford one since it also comes w/4 pages of health problems that will cost you several thousands of dollars for a dog whose life span has sadly been cut down to only 6 yrs.

 

That's it for me. I have better ways to use my time.