staffies and pitbull's history

I know what I'd rather have too and its the same as urself

 

So far, out of all the pics posted, the only real deal "old/original/working type" staffordshire bull terrer I've seen is the picture of the flynn dog posted by Active Irish. Every other dog from the other links appears to be either showbred staffs. Just because a dog is above a certain height or weight does not mean that he is not a show specimen, it just means that he is larger. Most apbt's average at 19 inches at the withers and in their mid 40s conditioned weight. However, there have been quite a few dogs that have been taller and heavier than this, even at their conditioned weight. Dogs that come to mind include Ch. Alligator, Gr. Ch. Lion Head, Ch. Horse, gr. Ch. macho buck, etc. Does this mean that these dogs are mixed? Also I'd like to mention that a working dog is a working dog and height does not affect the dog's abilities. There has been many short dogs that have proven their merit in the box, as well as medium and tall dogs. Just because one has a taller, leggier stafford does not mean that he has a old, working type of old and that the dog has no show blood in him.

Active Irish, your dogs are good looking dogs and are healthy, but if you look at their proportions, they definitely do resemble show dogs.

As for the debate on which dog is better, by far the apbt is the better dog than the staffordshire bull terrier on AVERAGE. However, there has been many a staffs that have whipped apbts, but this is a rarity. This is simply because the apbt is a dog that has been selectively bred to be the best in its abilities to dominate other breeds in the box, while the advent of the sporting staffords were a result from the revival of the sport of dog matching from dogs that came to nascence for the purpose of the show ring. HOWEVER, with that said, I'd take a stafford that has lost and lost gamely than an apbt that is an ace but is not game.

 

Bulls were bred to wheatens to improve physical strength and biting power, i doubt for a second it would have improved gamess as wheatens were already game, another very game irish dog is the kerry blue, although it doesent have the physical power of a pitbull or big staff the kerry is extremely game and would take his death against a bullterrier before he'd back off i know this for a fact because i've seen it.

 

You are clueless, bull was added to wheatens because they ware not game, for earth work they don't need to be extremely strong and don't need a hard mouth, as for Kerry blues it must be a 100 years since one of them was game if they ever ware, kerry blues are curs and only a show dog

 

lol, when have you ever seen a non game terrier? have you ever seen a lakeland, patterdale, glen of imaal, kerry blue, irish terrier, wheaten, that wasn't game?? the use of terriers in the production of the bullterrier was to reduce the bulky size and add speed and agility into the mix.
The cross was not to improve the terrier, it was to create a new breed of dog completely called the bullterrier, terriers were always game & hot headed dogs hence the saying "As Game As A Terrier" it was not "As Game As a Bulldog"??
As for my dogs being fat show dogs, the 1st photo of my red dog he was carrying a few pounds but he was far from a fat dog, in the 3rd photo he is shredded, muscle and bone, and if you can't see that you need big thick glasses.
I also stated here before that I do not work that dog because I've been there & done all that years ago, I'm a married man with children who play and care about that dog, I'd be a real sad case if at my age I take the dog out and bring him back banged up, and i'm not making any excuse or apology for not doing it, as i said, been there & done it when i was in my late teens to maybe 30s.
Also, I'm in no way responsible for those who messed the breed up, i've never owned a 15inch show dog, the red dog is an 18inch dog, the brindle one was around 19in, if you think they would be suitable show dogs then you're obviously not up to speed on the KC show standard for staffs.
But as usual some know it all comes on here and tries to tell us we know nothing blah blah, shite talk etc, where's the photos of yours?.

 

anyone that says a kerryblue is game is a FOOL, and has not got a clue... they are a show dog, no gamer than a standard poodle

 

Hi let me correct you, i said, a dog willing to face a badger and not back off is Game, I did NOT say it guarrantees he'd stick it out to the end in a dog fight, but he's definately not a coward if he'll take all a badger can give him?
I also said >> if a dog well used to dog fighting in a wooden box with good lighting and getting breaks and washed every few minutes> if he was taken and put to ground against a badger and it's using claws as well as teeth, That dog may turn and not know what to make of a badger, but he couldn't be called a coward as he'd proved game enough in the pit? So i said it's basically horses for coarses? it takes a hardy dog to fight a badger or be in the pit so their both game but with different experiences is what im trying to say.

 

Rickyb you seem very adamant that terriers arnt game,if that's true can I ask u why patterdales have their own sub forum on the site?

 

Gameness is gameness, there's no other way around it. If the dog proves himself game in the box, he will not run or turn tail from the badger under the earth. He'd either get the job done, or give his life up for the task. As for the badger trials being a test of gameness, I can say for certainty that 99% of the time, the test is not adequate nor sufficient. This is because the bull terrier breeds tend to be much bigger than a badger and it takes just one bite to dispatch and dispose of him. For my breed of choice, there is only one way to prove gameness, and that way is inside the box.

 

You're another who obviously can't understand exactly what you've just read then go into a tantrum with insults etc.
I never once said any of those bigger staffords around here were worked, i merely said they exist and their not typical 15inch show staffords, i said they were bigger athletic type dogs, now excuse me if the owners of those dogs haven't exercised them enough to have them shredded or feed them a little too much because they keep them as companions, but it doesent change the fact they are much taller than the show versions.
To answer your question, how many i owned in 30 years, > 8 staffords, 2 of which were bitches, 2 english bulls, both male and a battle cross Staff x English Bull, also a male so 11 in total in case you struggle with maths, Thats not including, 2 lakeland terriers an Airdale terrier, 2 jack russels, I also had Labs for shooting, & a few ordinary breeds, these were all my own dogs, how many have YOU owned?
you mentioned you saw the white dog? Nice big dog? what breed was it?
Was it a stafford or a mongerel??
As for whether you take into account what others say or not, i don't give a shit, you asked me to name a game dog?? but your question wasn't making sense because it's not clear of you wanted me to name a well known badger dog or fighting dog, but it doesent really matter because it was one dumb question as there's people naming them on here every day, & then you come out with >> i know a breeder in the UK but i don't want to mention them on here? so what??
Maybe you should grow a pair and put some posts up instead of saying crap like>
"i've watched you post on here for a while" " i didn't reply to any of your posts for my own reasons but there's only so much crap i can listen to without having to say something"
" i didn't know whether some of it was hilarious or embarrassing but definitely cringeworthy"
I have to laugh as people like you, who AGAIN never post anything because maybe YOU don't want to have anyone reply in the same manner you just did to me.
But at least i put up some posts and people can agree or dissagree, some of my posts were light hearted because some on here tend to get too serious and end up verbally attacking people (like you did)
So why don't you educate us all, post a few pics while your at it?? or are you're dogs top secret??
Enough said, I don't want to resort to the language you used in the first line of your second paragraph "at least not on here"

 

I'm not an anti, i made that quote because of people who try to use excuses like a dog facing a badger is not game because the badger was made fight but the dog wasn't etc, if you're a logical thinking person and you can call a situation as it is, then you'll agree neither the dog or the badger turned up by themselves and had a go, in other words the dog is not capable of thinking like a human, it's doing what is expected of him and in that scenario he's being pitted against a badger?
I'm aware there's a difference between fighting a badger compared to another dog, all I'm saying is to face either and not back down makes him game?
Weather the badger dog is as good in the pit or the pit dog is as good facing the badger is somthing we could debate forever it doesent deminish the courage of a dog willing to stay at it against either??

 

I'm glad you posted this, in your opinion, was that dog willing to face a lion game? would you consider an approximately 400pound wild lion a harder test than another dog?

 

What would we call this original breed if we had to name it?

 

Do you yourself know what gameness is? If so, then why did you post the badger trial and box comparison? A game dog, no matter what the situation, be it box or badger hole, will not quit. No game dog that has proven himself in the pit will quit against a badger, and yet you've made that statement.

 

Don't judge the book Ricky, you're assuming because you see the dogs being safe with children that the dog isn't willing, both that red dog and the brindle were strangely tolerant of small dogs or dogs that approached friendly but both of them didn't tolerate larger dogs especially if they showed any form of aggression, even a slight growl was enough for them to want to kill the other dog, and the brindle dog was actually bred raised and used by a guy who hunted fox and badger etc.
my first red dog was used for fighting, badgers, foxes before i took him, i made no secret on here that I like the breed for all the reasons that you all like them, and that i have friends who were involved with working pitbulls, i personally tried a bit of everything when i was between the age of 17 and late 20s early 30s, from then on i kept staffs because i like them, some i bought from guys who worked them, the battle cross i bought had also seen the box before i got him, BUT again i make no excuses>> i personally was too soft hearted or caring towards the dogs for my own good, i ended up with a lot of guilt about what i'd done in the past and for about the last 15 years the only fighting my dogs have done was by accident or on 2 ocassions i was attacked by other dogs and let the bullterrier deal with it.
I know some on here think because I don't work my dog that I'm less than worthy to post here or my comments make me out as a joke, BUT as i've said before, I've been there, done it in the past, in 10 or 15 years time the same people mouthing off on here will be older and what they've been doing over the last few years will also be old news, but will that mean they know nothing or have no right to keep a dog?

 

It's only one of quite a few i had and at about 19 inches i think he's well over the show size for a staff as it's now about 15inch, but if his look and shape if like a show staff it confirms that I know what a staff is?? I posted the pics because in an earlier post you said that you could tell by my comments i never had one or didn't know what one was? or somthing to that effect, here's another of my earlier ones, this one loved to be worked, completely mad for it.

 

You have every right to keep a dog, as does any and everyone else that feeds and cares for their animals accordingly and properly. HOWEVER, you do not have a working staff that descends from purely the original/working/traditional/old type dog. Your dogs are guaranteed to have descended from show dogs and I don't believe your dogs to be game, and your dogs have not gone through the test. A dog used on badger and fox is certainly not an adequate game test by any means. There are people in OZ that use their staffs on kangaroos and there are people that use them on boar, both the aforementioned animals are likely to give a harder fight than most badgers and certainly most, if not all, foxes. You still don't seem to comprehend, conceive, nor grasp the meaning and essence of gameness.

 

The vid with the rope was him just fooling around with a dog toy, plus it was made when he was over weight, I didn't post that vid on here someone else did that, but if you look at the last pics you'll see the same dog with no fat, if he'd shook the toy a little faster would it have proved anything??

 

looks like stowcote pride...........

 

Today it's called the APBT