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why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Discussion in 'APBT History' started by blue paul, Aug 26, 2007.

  1. 99jakc

    99jakc Pup

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    "around 1800/ 1820 The eurly imigrands took the bull and terriers along with them and uptill today these dogs have been bred and raised the same no a thing hase chainged!!.
    therfor the american pitbull terrier IS the breed from where the Sbt and the AM staff originated from!!.
    the fact that the SBT came out of the UK side of the origenal bullterrier makes NO diferense. as the orginal Bull and terrier breed died out in the uk and became known as the weak jerk of named the SBT.... The origenal dog the bull and terrier is still around!!!!!.."

    They did see you coming did'nt they. All the above is Stupid, ignorant and rubbish. Where is your PROOF. They probably ate their dogs during the potato famine, they could not feed themselves let alone dogs,,, for christ sake.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2011
  2. 99jakc

    99jakc Pup

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    Hi jacko
    The dog in the pic looks nice, i had an American pit bull bitch called Tara in the 90's with same colouration.
     
  3. Limey kennels

    Limey kennels CH Dog

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    BBwwhahahah ok!!. so please tell us ore educate us where and how did the change from Bull and terrier into the pitbull terrier happend???. what could be diferend????. what was ""added"" ore ""taken"" away to create the best fighting dog of today and yesterday!!.
    About the patatto famin dont you think the new imigrants ""needed"" there dogs in the new country where the west haddend been conqured yet!!!!, to suply safety and meat!!!!!!. i got this picture witch gose back to the 1840/1850 [​IMG]
    Uploaded with ImageShack.us
    Bij the way WE probely have the biggest euro colection of books magazines prints and art vwork consirning the fighting breeds. and befor my retiremend spending 30 years with the dogs and combined with my partners having a relatife modest 90 years of ecsperiense, our famely produced more then 35 ch and 4 grch and 4 rom dogs. thuse that cound ore bring along at least some weight to the table when it consirns nollige about the fighting breeds!!!.
     
  4. 99jakc

    99jakc Pup

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    The picture is of great interest my friend but what year was it taken ? And can you tell me when and why i took homage at what you said ? I came on here to get and give info but not to argue. The white dog would be an PBT ?, Early white english Bull terrier which were around a lot earlier than the Hinks dog ? White bull terriers were around in England in and during CIRCA 1820/30 ?
    Getting back to the above picture i could not date it through the worn apparel or the mixture of weapons some dry powder/some winchester type ?.
    Which was your favourite dog and why more to the point may i ask who they beat.
    The general consensus in England prior to the 1990's were at lower weights the SBT and EBT held their own, would you not agree or do you believe Dutch dogs to be better/bloodlines.
    I apologize if you were offended at something i said for this was not my intention.
     
  5. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    The (English) Bull terrier was never a fighting ...it was bred as a pet/show dog....I bet you can't mention the names of 10 EBT that ware matched in the Uk... when they say its was a cross between a Bulldog ...it did not mean a modern show dog...it was a fast, deep game, agile, dog... look at pre show picture/prints of bull/bear baiting ...the bulldog was near identical in looks to a modern APBT...at that time they too came in a wide range of weights....R
     
  6. Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    short answer, they was improved when they got here.
     
  7. 99jakc

    99jakc Pup

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    You cant use artwork some of the bulldogs looked like pits yes and some looked like cats, art work is misleading at best.
     
  8. 99jakc

    99jakc Pup

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    Either things improve or they get watered down, You know it improved because of the English Curs/how can you improve on the great English dogs because you know of the great champions in this country (records were not kept).
     
  9. Limey kennels

    Limey kennels CH Dog

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    99jakc had a nice wright up for you but i realized the gab in understanding is to large to close in a couple of posts.
    I therfor, leave this topic as it is. i dont feel going into a pissing contest right now.. al i can say is please dig deeper in the history of the breeds..
     
  10. Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    lol that why all the good stock over there is from U.S. stock. how many come back to the U.S.? short answer ZERO lol
     
  11. fonzie

    fonzie Top Dog

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    It's all though selective breeding of so many years
     
  12. 12 gauge

    12 gauge CH Dog

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    Staffords and Apbt are descendant of the same pit dogs from the end 1800's and mid 1900's, neither descend from the other. same breed people took in different directions. the majority of sbt's were bred and crossed with other breeds for monetary gain and to fullfil their own human satisfaction in shows and not the dogs'. Apbt's were selectively bred and maintained to win in the pit with much greater enthusiasm and dedication in America than the English did with the stafford in England, hence why there arent many staffords known to be winning gladiators but the mediocre specimens you see in the showring.
     
  13. hardluck

    hardluck Banned

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    the history of the original EBT is different than that statement of yours. hinks started the White EBT in the 1850's. the colored bull terrier already exsited before the white EBT dogs James Hinks created. Hinks at the time was careful to breed for gameness as he was not at the time interested in a complete show dog. his famous White EBT was a dog named Pus(40pnds). hinks would match into any dog of the time especially the colored EBT's. at the time the white dogs were thought of as just too pretty of a dog to be game and hinks would always have his Pus dog ready. the most famous match of hinks was against a 60pounder owned by one of the famous colored EBT breeders named Mr.tupper. after winning this match PUS went on to the Holborn Dog Show winning a red ribbon the next day. it was a big advance in hinks breeding amongst the English men of the time involved in the EBT's. the old white and colored EBT's were not always show dogs. it wasnt till the 1930's when it became a definite show breed. the whole BULLDOG thing i really dont believe to be true as some say. i will still call the APBT the bulldog of bulldogs but think that there had to be some infusion of Terrier blood in them. and throughout the breeds history touches of other good game dogs of other breeds were used in the mix, but the breeders made sure to keep the bulldog blood concentration the highest than other mixes involved. IDK call it what it is or was i just had to chime in because i used to own a White EBT that was breed for a performance look unlike the fat ebt's you see people breeding now adays. its a shame what the EBT's have turned into.
     
  14. hardluck

    hardluck Banned

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    were does the white color of in our APBT's come from anyone have an opinion? i think myself that the all white APBTs that we have still today comes from somewhere when the white EBT's were being created before the curved nose thing ever happened lets say 1850's-1890's. some where that white mix got into the APBT blood. not that it was needed but maybe someone wanted that white bulldog that was also game. it might sound like an intresting thought to some or maybe a crock of shit to others. IDK just a thought of mine. it always amazes me to see an all white APBT and when ever i see them this thought always comes up in my mind.
     
  15. Limey kennels

    Limey kennels CH Dog

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    I didnd whant to commend anymore on 99jakc but let me mention this!. outside the varius terriers other breeds like the dalmatier and greyhounds where used as wel . they carry along lots of wite!!. i have a old book called stonege on the dog first print 1849 it discribes that the greyhound was crossed with the bulldog and that it took 3 breedings back on that first cross to sif out the ""visible"" bulldog traights!.
    also today many a greyhound fights over the chase hare and inflikt lots of damage on echother breeeders and racers dont whant this and try to breed agression out . but still every greyhound today wares a muzzle when racing!!!!!!!!.. so we can say that the eagerness in the greyhound to chase the hare and get into a fight comes from the bulldog.
     
  16. Limey kennels

    Limey kennels CH Dog

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    ps the bull and terrier is discribed as wel and is shown of as a white dog!!. il look if i can manage to scan some drawings. also the understanding in those days consirning medical and kenneling is mind blowing!!!. they where not ignorend nore stupid!....
     
  17. jacko

    jacko CH Dog

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    some say that the "white" in the ebt comes from mixing in the old English white terrier, which is extinct.
    i havve also heard of the dalmation crosses,i have an open mind on this one.

    @ limey. i would say that the pure-bred greyhound has one of if not the most traceable pedegree in dogdom , so i am sure that there are records of any bulldog crosses in the natural history museum eg.
    i find it hard to believe that all greyhounds carry some bulldog blood. and i would think that they are muzzled when racing to prevent accidental damage rather than to stop fighting. interesting subject though...
     
  18. Limey kennels

    Limey kennels CH Dog

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    12 guage i beg to differ!!. sins the Staffords are bred AWAY from the origenal bull and terrier they ARE the ones who are desendanse of the origenal bull and terrier .
    Sins the Pit bull terrier HASEND been bred away but maintained and improved over time we can say and claim that the staffords ARE desendense of the american pitbull terrier! as they still are the ORIGENAL bull and terriers.
    there was only a name change!!! nothing els.
    The fact that the UK bull and terrier died out thus not mean that the american imported (pit) bull and Terrier is ore hase become anything els!!.
     
  19. jacko

    jacko CH Dog

  20. 12 gauge

    12 gauge CH Dog

    Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

    Limey Kennels, the main reason(s) I would disagree with the idea of the sbt coming from the apbt is because the breed wasnt stablished in america as such when the dogs were already matched in England as pit dogs and not as apbt's. Now i got to be honest and say that i have no idea of the name or term they've used for these matching dogs, but sure they werent called apbt. i'm pretty sure you know mcdonald's grip was imported to boston US as a pitdog not as an apbt, Lloyds pilot was recognised a a stafford (not a staffie, or staffordshire bull terrier) before he was imported to the US, by mr Holden from the black country, both dogs in the mid 20-30 lbs. offspring of pilot such as delihant monkey(etc..) at the beginning of the century wasnt an apbt either. we can go back to other imported pitdogs that werent still called apbt in fact, the last dog imported by mallen to the states in the 20's or 30's was already called a stafford, i believe he was a red coated dog. i'm not sure if there is any offspring of this dog. the bull part was added to the name after the cradley club helped mess up this breed with vengeance.

    descendants from Feeley's Jim (a dog that was part of tudor's dogs) werent still recognised as apbt's, his offsprings were just given the owner's last name as an affix and followed by the name and not apbt.

    Long before the name apbt came to place, the name stafford was given, that's why i say they come from the same pitdogs. People tokk the breed in different directions unfortunately
     

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