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Discussion in 'Staffordshire Bull Terriers' started by F.W.K., Mar 1, 2018.

  1. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. Retired Historican

    This article was published in the Winter 1997 issue of the "Staff Status" magazine.

    Carolyn Stewart

    I think that the old-timers such as Cockney Charlie Lloyd, Joe Dunn, H.N. Beilby, Joe Mallen, and J.T. Barnard would think we have lost our way. The men who formed the first Staffordshire Bull Terrier Club worked their dogs and showed them. They firmly and always held to the belief that a dog should look like it could do what it was bred to do. Since they had practical experience, they knew how a dog should be constructed in order to get the job done. They had this in mind when they wrote the first breed standard in 1935.

    Although sixty-two years have passed, and a new breed standard has been adopted, there have been no significant changes that would effect the over all function of the dog other than the height to weight ratio. The original standard called for dogs to be 13 inches to 18 inches tall. However, the weight of 28 - 38 pounds in relation to height, still applies, and nonconformity with these limits is a fault. If we actually followed the current standard this weight would probably be all right for a show dog, but a bit on the heavy side for a fighting dog.

    Since the abolition of dog fighting, Staffords have continued to grow in popularity to the public and dog fancy. Bill Boylan, one of the old-timers, felt that dog showing would be the death knell for the Stafford. He knew that there are always those breeders and show enthusiasts whom might be called "exaggerationists" who when told that a Stafford should have a wide skull, short and strong and muscular body, would breed and show a dog with an extremely wide skull, and short, low stationed, thick body.

    Too many of the top winning show dogs enter the ring with a fault -- they do not conform to the standard. Both in the height to weight ratio and in appearance (they do not look like they could do the job they were bred to do).

    Today, we are seeing show specimens that may be 16 inches in height, but are weighing 46 - 50 pounds or more. At that height to weight ratio, they would not have the agility or endurance of a fighting dog. I read a description of the Stafford that stated they should be envisioned as a tank in battle, with all the functions of a tank. A tank may be able to climb hills, crush objects by sheer weight, track through water, etc... But a tank is a ponderous piece of equipment, and compared to other equipment used in battle, is more difficult to maneuver. If the old-timers who actually fought their dogs felt that a tank like dog could win in the pit, they would have bred them that way -- they didn't. They wanted a dog that was quick on it's feet, able to spin on it's hindquarters, dodge teeth, lunge forward in an instant, and not run out of gas.

    Why do we worship the Bull and sacrifice the Terrier? True strength and agility have always been the cornerstone of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. When we talk of strength we do not imply the strength of the old massive Bulldog, but rather the graceful balanced strength of the Bull and Terrier. When we talk of agility what we mean is power - the power of free and rapid motion,

    Since dog fighting is no longer an appropriate lifestyle for the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, his popularity as a loving and faithful companion continues to grow. When bred to the standard, today's Stafford is active and energetic. He loves to ride in the car, go hiking, jogging, back packing and delights in sharing in his families activities. Although gentle and sweet by nature he can and will protect his human family, if duty calls.

    Thankfully, there are still some breeders who have managed to ignore the dictates of fashion and continue to breed Staffordshire Bull Terriers that are true to type. They are the real backbone of the breed for they have taken this pugilistic warrior and turned him into a wonderful modern athlete.

    By: Carolyn Stewart


    Active, agile and possessing a lot of stamina. A good balance of Bull and Terrier.



    Heavy, cloddy type of dog - more Bulldog than Bull and Terrier.

  2. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    I really like that article.
    I like the hints to History that are included.
  3. Fl0w

    Fl0w Pup

    Great article!
    First time I think i've read something positive about modern staff' here, thank's for this.
    They ain't anymore what they were used to be but they're not all some useless fat barrels for all that IMO, keep your mind open :)
    F.W.K. and bamaman like this.
  4. Lrs

    Lrs Big Dog

    True but 99 percent are unfortunately.
  5. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road Top Dog

    its people like her , and the show people who ruined the SBT ..
  6. Fl0w

    Fl0w Pup

    So what's a useless staff' in your opinion?

    Can you tell me more please? For the show people I agree and understand but why do you think that people like her ruined the breed?
    When i read this article i just see someone who say that we should continue to work the breed in a functionnal way, like it always was.

    Sorry if my questions seems stupid to y'all guys, i'm just trying to learn and understand more and more since I felt in live with those bull and terrier breed.

    Have a nice day
  7. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road Top Dog

    conformation shows and people who breed for it ruin breeds , SBT have been ruined by show people , just watch the Crufts winner ,,
  8. To true dusty road.the show people fekd them up,as they do with all working breeds!....shame on the show breeders!!!!...I hope u show folk are proud of ur selfs..for turning a athletic game dog in to a fat puff bag that get tired after doing a lap round the block...but then again that's all they want to do it suits them I suppose...the real staff would have been to much dog for show people!..that's why they feckd them up....ha the feckin jokers they should stick to poodles!...
    Lrs likes this.
  9. Fl0w

    Fl0w Pup

    Hey excuse me guys but do you realize that you're all repeating the same thing again and again? Yes show people killed the Sbt, like they killed most of the breed we know we all agree with that but that's not the point here, it's clearly state in this article that we should never breed for fashion but encourage the few breeder who try to turn those dogs into athlete, keeping them functionnal, keeping them like they should be so why are you bitching about show people here?

    So why? That was my question I still didn't get it...

    The problem actually is that show people are too stupid to try to understand the breed, they don't care what a Staff is about but on the other hand a big part of you game people are a bit too stuborn and proud to understand that it's time to help those dogs living in the time in wich we live IMHO. Time has changed, dog has changed, it's time for people to change i guess.

    Just look at this thread, it's a perfect exemple. A nice article that remind us what this breed was about, an article that remind us what we should never do, an article that remind us that we should encourage the few people who are still breeding Sbt in a decent way and what was your answer to all of this? What's your feeling about those few breeders?
    I don't feel that you give them a lot of consideration or respect. At best they have decent dogs... But they bred the fire out right? So useless i guess...

    For you it's all black or all white but where is the grey?

    From my point of view this mindstate is as a problem as show people are because like this nothing will never change, our breed will continu to die. You have more knowledge here than 95% of the actual Sbt breeder but you just stay on your side, with your idea of the breed and that's all, and this is sad IMO.

    Stand together or fall appart... Guess there is a thread like this somewhere...

    No offense here just my two cents

  10. Fl0w

    Fl0w Pup

    Soze the killer look, that's my boy here, show line staff, son's of a cruft winner, he had to be something like 9-10 month maybe when we met the first time a little boar during a hike. This boar was a nuts and didn't give a shit about us. My dog was sniffing the air, looking at him, barking. It was useless but i was curious to see what he would do if i let him go. Guess what? He began to run (yes I know that's truly amazing...:D). Guess in witch direction now? :-? ...

    Don't put all your eggs in the same basket. Some Staff are still able to run and to do wathever you ask them, and with pleasure, show line or not. Would he last 1 hour in []? Certainly not. Does I ask him something like this? Was he bred for this? No
    Does it make him useless? I don't think so but maybe i'm wrong

    Attached Files:

    YellowJohnJocko likes this.
  11. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. Retired Historican

    People must learn and understand to see every dog in their own light.
    A healthy athletic staffordshire is a nice dog to have around.
    Like so many other breeds of dogs.
    Mastiffs aren't killing indians or runaway slaves anymore and staffords aren't killing opponents in the pit anymore.
    Is that making them useless... for their orginial purpose probably yes, but for other nice things to do with dogs no ofcourse not.
    There will be Always dogs true to the core, if it is fighting,guarding or hunting, there will be Always people breeding the hardcore working dogs .
    And there will be dogs just for companion and other nice doggy things to do.
    If people want to show their dogs let them do it, that's their bussiness in which they take pride, fine for them.
    Life and let live, do your own thing and enjoy your working show or pet dog to the fullest and show some respect to those who thinks different then you do.
  12. Fl0w

    Fl0w Pup

    One more nice post FWK, thank you for this.

    I was not trying to disrespect anything or anyone here, hope you didn't get it like this. I'm not in the game, i won't ever be but after all this time reading and learning i opened my mind, i respect the work who was done, i understand some things i couldn't understand before, i understand the need of testing stud dogs a bit, ...

    My problem with most of the show people is that they're going against the breed, against the dog. We just have to see what some breed became after decades of poor selections. My problem with some game people is that you just see those dogs as fighters and not as athletes. People don't give enough credits to people who work their dogs in a different way, this is my feeling and this is sad, if more were working together, opening their mind and putting aside their own vision of the breed for the purpose of the breed i think it could only be improved...
  13. Fl0w

    Fl0w Pup

    And sorry for my poor gramar guys... :s I know^^
  14. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road Top Dog

    You did get it, does she show SBTs,,? if she does her aim is to one close to conformation standard ,,and that is what ruins all breeds ,,
    david63, Lrs and Soze the killer like this.
  15. Fl0w

    Fl0w Pup

    Actually I don't know if she does and that's why i asked you your opinion, thought you knew.

    One problem today is that a lot of country do have shitty law about dogs, forcing people to buy dogs which are close to the stantard or putting them into illegality. Other problem is that even people who would like to buy those illegal dogs are not always able to do it because those dogs are kept in some circle which are just so fucking tight that you can't get in if you don't have a lot of contacts.

    That's why I think we should encourage breeders who're still breeding healthy and athletic dog's, even if they follow more or less the stantard because they're the only good choice for most.
  16. FLow what I said ain't aimed at you....but I guess your crufts dog ran for home lol....I will try and answer your questions.would one last a hour in box?.you answered that.does I ask him to do something like this?..obviously not.was he bred to do this?.you answered that to.does this make him useless?pretty much!..... Sorry but its true.truth hurts.......hers how it is..the real staffs(yes they were show dogs,but people in Ireland wanted a working dog,and that's what they bred!)are basically extinct! Ask any one one here from my country..... What ever working lines their was should be credited to the Irish people who worked their dogs solid for 40 odd years.not the show breeders like mallan.yes Mallans dogs were pit dogs in his youth.but when they got k.c.recognition they changed,and started to deteriorate....then the people of Ireland stept in,and bred them how they used to be..but when the a.p.b.t.came to these shore's the people who bred game version's of staffs quickly changed to the a.p.b.t. because its supreme comperd to even the gamest staff....I can see why the dog men who used to own real working staffs are pissed of with the show dog of to day!when they worked so hard to keep the dogs from losing working ability......Dusty road is right!!..and he no more about staffs the any one does!...
  17. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    I have read that Pete Sparks did not mind importing some of the Dublin Red dogs at some point..and according to the history of the Irish dogs, some of them were hell on American bred cousins when they came...
    Soze the killer and Lrs like this.
  18. Lrs

    Lrs Big Dog

    The right dog for the right job. If a staff won't get It done then it's just a pet not a pit dog...
    F.W.K., david63 and Soze the killer like this.
  19. Do you think that's true?that they were hell on their American cousins?...Pete sparks was known to sell lots of dogs...
  20. I totally agree.nothing wrong with having a pet!..but that's all it is right?no need to make out it's a world beater or nothing...if u want a worker get a worker.if u want a pet get a pet...but please let's not say a pet can still give it some when it can't.....that's all I was getting at in the above post....
    david63 and Lrs like this.

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