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steroid use-morals and ethics

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by greenzone, Jun 16, 2018.

  1. This is a great thread.but fuck me it seems very complicated to use steroids.

    Natural all the way!...
    david63 and greenzone like this.
  2. Kostas81

    Kostas81 Big Dog

    You know why natural is the safest path? Millions of years of evolution of nature, take care of that.
    A body adapts the way of living, a keep in our circumstance.
    We just have to keep in mind that 70% of a successfull keep is feeding and proper rest/sleep.
    Soze the killer and greenzone like this.
  3. I believe that to....steroids,are just to much for me to get my head around..........dogs are natural.so natural all the way!!!....
    greenzone and david63 like this.
  4. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    I'd raise that percentage 10-15%.

    Working a dog is the easiest part. Feeding has to be dialed to match. And rest is most often over-looked.

    Soze the killer likes this.
  5. CockneyRebel

    CockneyRebel Big Dog

    Some people think they are machines and forget they are flesh and bones just like us, they overheat, fatigue, cramp, dehydrate just the same. They need the work putting in but they need the recovery as well.
  6. david63

    david63 CH Dog

    steroid are complicated.
    Soze the killer likes this.

    DISCOIII Premium Member Premium Member

    I have been reading this post from the beginning and the responses have all been good ones. Here's my take in the late 70's most bulldogs came in clean but by the early 80's and especially the mid 80's steroid use was getting a real foot hold on the dogs. Contests even at the lowest levels were mostly steroided up bulldogs because of conditioning laziness. I tried to stay competitive with clean dogs but I lost one night to a lesser bulldog that was nothing but a drug factory told to me by the owner. After that night I told myself that I would never lose that way again, now think of this Ben Johnson was the fastest man alive in 1985 on steroids beating Carl Lewis who I think was clean, before taking steroids he lost six in a row to Lewis. So steroids do enhance athletic ability if done right. When dog men like B. Hall tells you that he uses steroids he is telling you the truth but in that same sentence he will not tell you how he uses them because he says you would probably mess it up again a true statement. The way most good dog men learned how to administer the right kind and the right amount at the right time is through a good vet. which costs a lot of time and money and risk for you and your vet. Working with a vet took the guess work out by doing the right thing for your bull dog. At that time talking to other dog men about shot schedules and amounts and listening to what they had to say many were so off with there information because they would go by here say or follow other successful dog men, advice which was not a good source of information. At that time also most men thought more was better and a lot of good bull dogs went sterile two off the top of my head are O. Stephany's Evil 2x winner and O. Stephany's GR CH Vigil , both were sold because they went sterile from heavy steroid use but Evil came around and started producing again after some time off. So do I use them yes it works and I know because when top dog men see your bull dog in action and then come up afterward and ask the questions about your way of conditioning and the way your dog looks and performs you know you are doing something right. It was a lot easier back then to find a vet. that would work with you I was lucky enough to have a vet. that was active with the chickens and also loved the dogs. Some times he was needed early Sunday morning and the first thing he would ask me was " is he a good one" and I would say I would not be here if he was not.
    F.W.K., greenzone, oldguy and 5 others like this.
  8. Great story....and that's the key!.a good vet!.....finding one,is like finding gold!...well for me it is anyways.lol.
    Now you just said all that,it makes sense for me to stay away from the steroids.because I've got to be honest,I just don't understand them.and with out the assistance of a vet,it seems dangerous if you don't understand.

    Natural all the way!!!...
    david63 likes this.
  9. Kostas81

    Kostas81 Big Dog

    Carl Lewis admitted that he was on steroids also... Actually at that final I think all were on steroids. Just check their eyeballs! They are yellow, cause their kidneys can't process all that testosterone!!!
    Slim, rest is overlooked cause they don't know what is happening that time in the body. If they knew, it would be the first priority!
    I would disagree on that 10-15% though. First of, it's a gamble, second it's only periodical and backfires in the long run...
  10. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Explain the last line.

    I was adding 10-15% more to the 70% from the post above mine.

  11. Kostas81

    Kostas81 Big Dog

    I understand you refer to steroid use. I was wrong?
  12. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    No sir, you said 70% of the keep is feeding and proper rest/sleep. I was saying I would up that by 10-15% as rest is the most over looked, yet most important.

    I think maybe 80-85% of the keep is about feed and rest.

    My reasoning is most dogs will work and most will work hard. When a dog is willing to work hard it must be fueled with great feed. Matching the feed pan to the work load is an art in itself. Once the dog is fueled and then worked then he must rest.

    Feeding and working soon fails if the dog is not rested. And rest is most often over looked. If the dog is not rested then any amount of work is too much.

    I was agreeing with your post on the importance of feed and rest. I was just thinking it may be even more important that the 70% you stated.

  13. oldguy

    oldguy Top Dog

    Good post DiscoIII and one I'll go refer back to again, Don't mean to go off topic, but I listened to British runner (Steve Cram) interview Ben Johnson on a radio program years ago and it opened my eyes for sure, they were all taking PED's DiscoIII, Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis and Linford Christie, the US protected Lewis, the UK protected Christie and Johnson got hung out to dry.. Think of Adidas, Nike, Reebok etc, the power and money behind those companies, all competing to sponsor the fastest man on the planet and Ben Johnson sponsored by some Jamaican sponsor nobody ever heard of.. Sorry for hijacking the thread!
    CockneyRebel, DISCOIII and david63 like this.
  14. CockneyRebel

    CockneyRebel Big Dog

    Carl Lewis is the biggest hypocrite out there, dirty rat......
  15. JenteVA

    JenteVA Pup

    If everyone would start to use steroids, the added value (whatever it may be) is nullified by the fact that everyone is doing it. So in the long run it's rather pointless as it shifts the focus from putting in the work to finding the best treatment. Examples of a phenomenon like this can be observed in cycling competitions, and obviously in bodybuilding.

    Another point is the long effects of steroids on the endocrine system especially in females. Hormones have the capacity to reshape and mediate biochemical processes for better or worse.
    When you look at a birth control injection (is repeated after 3-6 months) it can prevent the uterus from building a proper environment for an egg to nestle. These effects can spillover long after the last injection, with some failing to get pregnant up to 2 years later (although extreme). We can imagine the effect of hormones on dogs are much less documented.
    So why do I use pregnancy as an example? We know that a critical part in the development of a fetus is regulated by hormone exposure in utero. So it follows that a female dog jacked up with steroids of which we do not know the consequences will give birth to pups that have been exposed to said effects. Issues ranging from sexual ambiguity to extremes in brain function to cancers to a similar hormone cycle are effects within the realm of possible outcomes. It carries over to several generations after, if you'd ask me the opposite of consistency.
    Overall I'd argue that messing with steroids, especially on females is a bad idea.
  16. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. Retired Historican

    Almost every person running in the fastlane is searching for something which will give him the edge above others.
    It always was that way it always shall be that way in open competition.
    It is up to the conditioner how he will bring them in, there is no regulation in this all and never was.
    In the past things like cake soaked in red wine was given right before, yes already 100's of years back they were '' juicing up''.
  17. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Sometimes in the nostalgia of these dogs the thoughts of preserving gameness, sustaining the breed, making the standards, the fact remains it has always been about winning.

    If gassing up is a integral part of the W then so be it. There is nothing morally or ethically wrong, it is simply using a tool to your advantage.

    Even for the guy who is not doing dogs, just selling puppies, most of his pitches are based of winning, or the winners in the back of his peddled dogs.

    It is all about winning. It would be like someone say my dog is really killing the slat mill. He is so far ahead of the curve on the slat mill that I have a distinct advantage over the next guy. In the name of the name of fairness, and my ethical approach, and in regards to the competition, I am not going to use the slat mill.

    That will never happen. Using a slat mill to gain an edge to win is no different than using steroids. It is all about doing whatever it takes within the rules to win.

    I think that sometimes gets lost in 'all things bulldog'.

    who, Holocaust, F.W.K. and 1 other person like this.
  18. CockneyRebel

    CockneyRebel Big Dog

    Not necessarily for the breeders though, as long as they are tested properly then matching isn't a necessity.
  19. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Partly true.This day and time with all the laws I couldn't blame anyone for not matching and just handling their own.Matching is important though if you plan to run with the big boys.You will only be as good as your competition.Do what works best for you.
    F.W.K., slim12, david63 and 1 other person like this.
  20. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    I can see the point but do not necessarily agree. First off, I am no breeder. Puppies have always been far too much of a hassle for me.

    What is the purpose of breeding, when the dogs themselves were created for competition? No one plays for fun, we always keep score.

    Keeping score is W's, keeping score is game losses, and keeping score is L's as well. Neither of those 3 things ever started out with, "I'm pulling out tonight hoping I bred a game dog". No one leaves home with the thought process of proving they have a game dog.

    They leave home with winning on their mind.


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