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staffies and pitbull's history

Discussion in 'Staffordshire Bull Terriers' started by DiMaSaLaNg, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    lol, you're enjoying this?? well get in there and back me up, have to sign off in a minute, but I recon the truth is a bitter pill sometimes? catch you later.
  2. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    But i'm irish and in ireland and as much as it pains me to admit it, we know the irish who fled to England to find work discovered them in England and brought them back here, and then onto to the USA.
    even the mastiffs used by the romans were british, first discovered the hard way by the romans when they fought against the english on the battlefields and had to face the mastiffs, the romans took mastiffs back with them, so it's the most sensible conclusion that the mastiffs and bulldogs used against bulls and bears where english and the bull and terrier crosses talked about and painted by famous artists, in signed paintings which we can find on google and look at them must leave little or no doubt where the breed originated.
    So if the Paddy's arrived in the usa because >> [SIZE=-1]1740-41. Famine struck Ireland in 1740* and was certainly the principal occasion for the third large wave, which included numbers of substantial Ulstermen. An estimated 400,000 persons died in Ireland during 1740-41; for the next decade there was a tremendous exodus to America. <<
    [FONT=Times,Times New Roman]Between 1846 and 1900 approximately 2, 873,000 Irish came to America. Irish immigrants of this period were predominantly Catholic

    When Irish and English immigrants came to America, their dogs came with them. Not surprisingly, dog fighting was common in America throughout the 19th century. However, as the immigrants traveled west, the pit bull took on a broader and more humane function. On the frontier, pit bulls assumed the role of an all-purpose dog. In addition to herding cattle and sheep they served as faithful guardians, protecting families and livestock from the ever-present threat of thieves and wild animals.
    Ultimately the AKC did recognize the pit bull in 1936, albeit under the designation of the Staffordshire Terrier, named after the region of England where the crossbreeding of bulldogs and terriers is thought to have begun.

    Above was all taken from the history of the Pitbull not my own words, but it's enough to settle the debate even if no one wants to accept the facts.

    [FONT=Times,Times New Roman]
  3. cromsboss

    cromsboss Big Dog

    irish famine 1845 - 1852

    that's my last post on this subject
  4. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    Before i sign off for a while, somthing to think about>> We all know many many Irish men and woman immigrated to the USA in the 1700s and 1800s and ever since, today there are over 40 million Americans who claim their Irish Ancestory, by now they are the only the decendants of the original Irish and many of them have never set foot in Ireland.
    Is that not the exact same situation as the Pitbull? so are those people Not Irish?? we're they not from pure Irish breeding?
    now theres some food for thought??
  5. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    There was 2, 1740 - 1741 and 1845 - 1852
  6. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    Maybe now it takes 21 days, but years ago a dog had to do 6 months in Quarrantine before being allowed to go on, the reality is, there's enough good dogs in both countries to remove the need to import or export anymore, plus Pitbulls are banned in the UK so thats a non starter.
  7. Herodog1

    Herodog1 Top Dog

    I thought with the introduction of the pet passport our dogs can now travel freely. Correct me if I'm wrong.
  8. tommy1985

    tommy1985 Big Dog

    with quite a lot of american born people consider themselves irish due to their heritage, but funny when it comes to the dogs regardless of their heritage the dogs are american. Its a no brainer really lol. I'm finding it amusing that people keep saying that no one can lay claim to these dogs and where they originated from but the history is quite clear to read. Even reknowned american pitbull breeders who've published books on the subject, ed reid, stratton and others to name a few have quite openly said where they originated and these are men with a lot more experience with the breed than most people anywhere. Pitbull.. American pitbull, cocker spaniel.. American cocker spaniel, akita.. American akita, I'm seeing a pattern, anyone else?
  9. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    no one in Ireland, serious with these dogs have used staffs in over 20 years because they can not compete with APBTs
  10. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    If the Irish Old Family klans never did a breeding outside their own Klan and never sold a dog to outsiders, then it would mean "no crosses" to English bred dogs have ever been made.
    The English bred dogs were always more bred to the Bull Dog side of this Bull Dog x Terrier cross. But the Terrier influence was needed to improve the pitdogs in England.
    If the Irish and the English dogs were of a different breed, and the English dogs were 'Bulldogs', then the Irish dogs perhaps have been terriers ? Pure Terriers ?
    It really sounds as when the Irish x English cross wasn't made in GB.
    It took a Welsh to make these crosses. With him the term peddler was born, lol.
    Before that time dogs were family bred in GB and the US.
    These crosses did put them pitdogs to the next level. With the Irish dogs being more concentrated on a closer bred genepool. They were producing stronger.
    A 75% English x 25% Irish bred dog might be still carry more of the tighter bred genepool. And that's still the same today.
    The fire is still coming from them Old Family Reds. The late starting and cold dogs producing strains often come in black and white.
    SBT, AmStaff and all of that kind are heavy english bred dogs. With the SBT probably still very very close to the original Bull Dog x Terrier dogs, the Half and Half, without Irish Terrier influence.
    And I'm not even from an english speakin country, dang ! lol
  11. tommy1985

    tommy1985 Big Dog

    call me stupid, and educate me someone but I'm not sure I even understand the half of that or the point that was to be made..
  12. wildchild

    wildchild Pup

    So quick question here, what did us ( meaning I live here) Americans add to the Stafford after it floated over in a boat to make it a APBT and make it a different named breed?
  13. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    Main point probably is that I say the Irish Old Family Red is of a pure Terrier breed.
    Maybe Terrier mutations. Mutations are part of evolution ?
  14. stickler

    stickler Big Dog

    Hybrid vigor ?
  15. wildchild

    wildchild Pup

    Nothin like importing a green Volkswagen, repainting it red then calling it a Ferrari! LOL
  16. OnTheRocks

    OnTheRocks Moderator

    Yes, a whole bunch. But that is not relevant to this topic. Besides anytime it happens people say afterwards that the APBT was mediocre or pure garbage, even though the talk was something else before it went down. In Ireland tough, it may not have happened in the last 20 years, as I have stated here several times when they started to improve they were already in England. None of the top breeders of Staffs for the last 20 years has been in Ireland as far as I know.

    But I do agree with you. If you took one of the absolute top APBTs in the world into a decent Staff, the Staff would have a problem. But if you took the absolute best of the Staffs in the world, and faced a descent APBT the odds would be even.

    As already mentioned, it also has a lot to do with numbers, and the improvement that comes with that. There are a handful of serious Staffs left, and millions of APBT┬┤s. The odds are stacked against the Staffs. With that in mind I am still amazed that it occasionally comes up a Staff worth a bet.
  17. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    I think the best staffords in the past 30 years in England or Ireland would only be able to compete with low standard APBTs, working/Irish staffs almost disappeared from the sporting scean in Ireland within a couple of years when APBTs came across in late 1970s/early 1980s...its like racing a track greyhound with a racing lurcher
  18. wildchild

    wildchild Pup

    So you come on a public forum of which you think every tom dick and harry who is in to the Pit fighting ownes a computer let alone enternet is a member here to answer or back that statement up! Do you speak for everyone in that country? Are you president of all the members of all the circles of small gathering of illegal contestants there?
    There is a more undereducated APBT terrier fan's under more keyboards worriers than staffs for sure because of all the media and hype id guess!
    You make petty big statements for being one person...Or is RickyB the name of a group of 10thousand all signed up under one name?
    Oh I forgot your the fastlane president! whooops my bad
  19. Dusty Road

    Dusty Road CH Dog

    Do u know me ? its a very small community that keep these dogs in Ireland, you with your smart ass answer , hiding behind a name how no one knows you, so you can say any thing you like, if you think Im wrong show me something to prove YOUR point
  20. hmots

    hmots Big Dog

    I think your giving too much credit to apbts as a breed based on a few fine examples you saw brought over there!Most apbts in this country are no diffrent than most staffords.a true hard apbt ..yes is a sight to behold but they are they are a minority in the vast expance that is the apbt

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