staffies and pitbull's history

The dog was in good condition in the match he quit at THIRTY mins and he tried to jump the pit , i saw dozens of photos were he was sat under a tree afterwards whilst dogs were being walked past him and he never attempted to get to them after he quit he was left in the pit and then walked over to the side of the pit and tried to jump out and was kicked back in by a wellknown Texas dogman all this took place in front of 300 dogmen . The good/bad condition was told by Carver to those at pitside as he sold them pups out of a dog theyd just seen quit and telling them only his own son could defeat the great Bullyson , he was that great a dog they shot him and threw him in a ditch on the way home , whilst at Mayfields he told me about the Bullyson dogs first two matches against the SIR dog owned by Weaver and how the matches were made , he also wrote about it in a story in one of the magazines at the time , what he told me was varified by wellknown dogmen who were also at the match and were present when Mayfield was telling me . As for lots of top dogs and bloodlines being based on Bullyson , so many dogs are disputed as being sired by the dog and many years ago Pete Sparks told me he saw Hounds , Bulldogs , Birddogs on Carvers yard all in pup to Bullyson he even wrote about this in the SDJ some years ago , its the same with the stories about his blood count , and that he was bred a lot in his keep , he was matched on the biggest show at that time were all the great dogs were going to be matched , he was conditioned by a top conditioner/dogman but after he quit were told he wasnt right yet he was he betting favourite at pitside , now were asked to believe these vastly experienced dogmen matched a dog going for his Championship on the biggest show in the history of the game and they brought him in unfit and still matched the dog ,that sounds like a crock of bull to me and is certainly not the way Danny Burton and Indian Sonny saw it as they later spoke in magazines about the match . I know the dog produced a few good dogs but did he ? was he the sire of these dogs ? check the weight of SIR in his previous matches and the weight of Bullyson in his then look at the weight they were matched at and the weight Bullyson was matched into Benny Bob , incidently im sure CH Benny Bob quit in his next match to CH Jimmy Boots and CH Bullyson Jnr quit to Tombstone who was owned and matched by Mayfield , he also owned a brother to Jimmy Boots called CH Ranger (won4x) by the way do you know who won best in show at the Bullyson/Benny Bob convention ?

 

im of the same belief as j.t when it comes to game dogs being game to their specific task they were bred for and not being messured with the same stick. another eg. being the new age earth dogs being bred today . since the introduction of locator collors there has been a rise in the use of very hard terriers for digging. some of these terriers will go straight into grips with quarry much larger/stronger than themselves under ground and try hold on until dug to. its in complete darkness, a few feet under ground, the air is thick and hard to breath, there is dirt in his eyes/mouth/ throat and stomach and he could be there with his quarry for anything from 20 mins to a few hours taking stick . usually earth dogs like this are the result of terriers heavy in staff or e.b.t blood , as you can imagine they are only fit for a few trips to the field before their working days are over and they might better serve for a breeding program. i would call this type of terrier game. if i owned one of these terriers and he quit after 20 mins against another terrier well ide be dissapointed but ide have to remind myself that he is not "hard wired" to keep scratching to his death into another dog.. as someone else said before on a simular thread " we didnt invent the word game and so dont get to interpret what exactly it means to everyone else". now having said all that,i have to admit i can still understand when ricky says that people keeping real pitbulls expect more from a game dog as i think their particular test is generally the most consistent and hardest test you could put a dog through. but fuck it lads! i dont even like dogs, i keep budgies. i just found this site by accident yesterday :rolleyes: ha ah

 

I have been around terrirs and hunting dogs since birth and have photos over 50 years old with myself as a small child with terriers and saluki coursing dogs before they became popular . I hunted with terriers for many years and found that bull blood was a disadvantage in a terrier , youd get one dig then the dog was laid up for weeks or months and they also used to attract to much attention with noses and lips missing . I saw many terriers down the years that were excellent badger dogs that had no bull blood and wre far superior to the bull crosses , howevor at the end of a dig when the kissing has to stop a hard dog comes in handy , but rather than get a good terrier in to get smashed or damaged a strong dog does the same job without getting damaged and like yourself i dont own dogs now but breed canaries

 

I do not dispute the facts, on the contrary out of experience, I am personally very wary of dogs with too heavy Eli influences or too much of an Eli phenotype. Seen too many times how dogs out of that type acts under certain circumstances. But Bullyson is too far back in most pedigrees of today to make a real impact, what we need to look at the closest three generations. As someone put it; what is behind three generations is for most people just stories or lies anyway.

Now, with that said- the inheritance of gameness is something tricky, we cannot exclude that Gameness might have much to do with the environment that the dog is brought up in, or currently living in. The reason I say this is simple. I have seen curs produce deep game dogs; I have also seen dead game dogs produce curs! Personally I prefer to breed only proven gamedogs, out of a proven lineage. But I do not rule out the idea that in the right hands, even curs will produce high percentage game blood lines. That is a proven fact with ALL the dogs you have mentioned as curs.

Since we talk Stafford´s let’s take the Rickey dog as an example, you say he quit. I do not dispute that. But I know his owner claimed foul play. The dog was as I understand it later tested again, with a good result. I also know for a fact that he´s last owners where a ruthless crew, that rolled him for an extended time at the age of eleven. He was rolled into a much younger dog and acted fine. Now- in my book this is not how a real cur would act! A real cur would quit sooner the next roll, and even sooner again the time after that. Then look at Rickey´s producing record- he has produced he´s fair share of dogs that proved gameness. Like Jack who was extensively rolled and game tested. Or his litter brother Rickey jr. And there are more examples.

With all respect, if I were to listen to you and RickyB I could just as well shoot of my Stafford´s. According to Ricky no Staffs can compete with APBTs, yet I have seen it with my own eyes. According to you dogs with any Bullterrier influence are useless, yet I have seen them with my own eyes doing a good job…

 

OTR, i think you are missing what is actually being said. i do not see it said that dogs with bull terrier blood are useless, obviously a few famous ones prove that wrong, but how many of them produce that well ?
also staffords can compete with the APBT at some level but not with the good ones.most staffords we heard of that beat apbt's also went on to lose at some stage of their career to them too.for example scarecrows duke,joss,ch red bull. they were found a little short when up against better quality apbt's but as staffords they would be at the top of the tree if you see what i mean.

 

As a breed they can't ..individual SBt they might , its happened in the past, but Iv never seen one that come close to beating a good APBT and the ones I know of ware against low standard APBTs

 

Of the Rocks your understanding holds no validity and in your view we should rewrite the way these dogs were bred for three hundred years , you talk about ELI dogs what has this to do with Bullyson , your thinking ELI Jnr and Bullyson were littermates and thats bullshit just like the stories you believe that MILO and RICKY never quit . You keep saying its so far back in the pedigree it dont matter , well it might not matter to you but when a dog is inbred/linebred to a thirty min cur and carries a good percentage of its genes or blood then certainly it matter . These dogs today still carry the looks styyle of fighting that Bullyson did thats because they STILL carry a large percent of this blood . Its the same with the present day Blue crossbreeds being sold with false pedigrees as KC registared dogs , perhaps Ricky B can tell us which of those Blue dogs were KC registared ? I could understand if a pedigree had one cur way back in a pedigree but some dogs are linebred/inbred on these dogs that quit and the dumb people that breed and sell them shout about owning such low value dogs being a family bred around or based on a dog that quit . As for Ricky he quit thats it tough shit he was a rank cur accept it , as for him being game tested aged eleven thats a crock of shit also , the dog they tested him with must have been a lollipop , if the dog was so good why didnt they match him ? How is it people call foul play when a dog quits ? it happens to us all only some of us are honest and either cull the cur or find a PET home for the dog whilst others with no understanding tell lies make excuses and continue to breed from the curs then years later when your all wearing your rose tinted glasses looking at your dogs thinking they are something they are certainly not , someone like myself who actually saw these dogs or counted them out or made them quit says so and everyone has a cissy fit trying to say im lying or am jealous , dont make me laugh , i tell the TRUTH even about my own curs only i didnt breed from them unlike others .Its quite obvious you have little understanding of gameness and no offense is intended by that remark what has the gameness in a dog got to do with its enviroment ? the reason a dog quits is because its a cur it dont think oh ive been harshly treated my owner dont love me , i had nothing when i was growing up i got picked on as a puppy . You talk about dogs with Bull terrier blood doing well ? name one dog with Bull blood that won over a pitbull ? or better still name one dog other than Stormer in the last twenty years that won a match ? not a silly backyard roll , as for those dogs like Ricky , Milo , Jocko etc i remember them well they were NOT open to match .I have also seen two curs produce aces and dead game dogs produce curs but when you look back in the pedigrees the two curs might have some very game dogs back there and the game dogs have a few curs thats why those Blue dogs are like they are theres just to many dog turds in the ice cream tub or has you said it plenty have pissed in the beer . The gamedog game is about cutting the odds in your favour and if you think that dogs with known curs produce better than dogs that are tested hard and the curs culled then everything i ever learned in over thirty years of owning breeding and culling curs has been wrong and perhaps i should start again with dogs bred from curs . Anyway the proof is in the pit not in a pedigree truth is proven in doing not talking or looking at pictures or listening to fairy stories from people that were not there or are simply LIARS the best of luck to you and your understanding as thankfully its different to mine but thats what makes this game intresting and competitive its called PROVING TRUTH !!!!!

 

The psycho strain still persists even to this day and psycho certainly produced well. Psycho was known to have EBT blood in him. Along with this, certain apbts have been influenced with the BT blood. It may or may not be hearsay but Walter Kominski's stock is supposedly influenced with bull terrier and his dogs were fine specimens.

 

Who keeps Kominski dogs today ? And show me a dog that carries just 1% of this blood in the furthest generation of its pedigree , as for CH P hycho weve heard it all before the facts are he won four matches against other staffs or crossbred Bull terriers then he lost to a dog that was sired by a cur Adams out of a English Bull bitch so lets not get to carried away . The CH Phycho dog was as Ricky B says a good dog at the time but lets not confuse things by thinking these dogs could compete with even a poor quality pitbull, and Bull terrier blood in any breed is a NO NONO!!

 

psycho's former owner has continually said that staffords are not of the same quality as apbt's. no doubt some decent enough dogs came down from him but decent only as staffords or crosses, when compared to the good quality pit bulls they are not in their league.not to take anything away from the dog himself as he made a name for himself and rightly so.

 

I owned the "Psycho" dog in the early 1980s...I think as SBTs go it is the best strain for sport (EBT in the background or not), he produced better than the other strains..the dogs that came from him and his sons ware better , gamer and better winded that the purer talked about strains...but could they compete with APBTs, no is my answer...nearly every one from here that ware into sporting SBTs changed to this strain, bred to this strain, crossed into their pure strain,,,,FBK bought "Psycho" and bred him to all their and everyone in their areas bitches, TL bred to "Psycho" and bred his son "Max" to their and lots of bitches in the Dublin area, owner of "Squaw" used "Psycho" and produced Ch."Marvin"...I never took a litter off "Psycho"..as I wanted to get APBTs, because back then as now, I believe they are a Superior breed...R

 

That is exactly my point of view! All you been doing here is degrading other people, their dogs and their pedigrees. While lifting your own cockup fake titled dogs to the skies. All you do is talk! The proposal I made privately stands! Take it or shut the hell up and spare us your bullshit…

 

The only dog i owned that i spoke about on here was GRCH Bruno after others on this board spoke lies about the dog , others have mentioned dogs i was involved with but never have i boasted about ANY of my dogs past or present , as for your proposal PM me as ive never spoken to you in my life

 

I already did, more than twelve hours ago…

 

By no means am I insinuating that bull terrier blood is good, just saying that some dogs with bull terrier blood has proven themselves to be of decent quality in the pit. None of these dogs can even come close to competing with the apbt since the purpose of the dog defines it, and this is the apbts' purpose. However, at the time when apbts were not as prevalent in england or ireland, a few staff x ebt dogs have proven their merits against other strains of dogs.

 

I also saw some dogs with Bull terrier blood that were very game dogs such as CH Stormer , Irish Jack , Mc Carthys Spike were all great dogs and The Guvnor all though a pure English Bull was a very game dog being matched many times and always sceatching , howevor English Bulls are not a game breed in general and in MY opinion its a big backward step

 

I haven't read it all,but seems if it didn't happen in front of RickyB's and JT's eye's it didnt ever happen!
Im wondering if the saying " walk loudly and carry a small stick" applies?

 

Forgive me for butting in,
I was just wandering, I keep hearing that good apbt are all GAME BRED and that EBTs & SBTs are not so can't compete with the apbt. I don't dispute this, I was just wander if both SBTs & EBTs had been game bred and tested in the same way as the apbt from the begining until the present day would they then have been a match for the apbt?
What are your thought's on this?

Peace

 

some countries in eastern europe still use ebt and sbt. check out the gull terrs on you tube, they"re similar to ebt but they are in india and pakistan.

 

I only comment on where Im from...I have seen it and SBT don't as a rule be able to compete with APBTs...but I know no SBT has competed here in about 20 years...