staffies and pitbull's history

Iread with intrest the post by Brenner and feel he made some intresting points , many years ago i spoke with some very wellknown show stafford breeders whose names forty years later are still spoken of by stafford owners like they were gods , the owner of these dogs told me he selected pups by letting them bite a hot steel bar and the one that held on longest was the gamest , these people were a joke . The introduction of The Red Hand dog into the Wheaten lines produced some outstanding game dogs such as Lance who was dog of the year twice , howevor the introduction of this Bull terrier blood brought about the ruination of the working Wheatens as each generation passed the dogs quality deteriated until they were but a shadow of there past glory and now today its virtually impossibble to get a genuine working bred pure Wheaten . This goes to show that the addition of Bull terrier does nothing to enhance a breed of dogs as even though Red Hand (Howdy) was a great badger dog he was bred from a hundred years of show dogs and the first crosses had gameness and hybred vigour but the cross ruined a once great working breed . Now if you take the above in mind what sense would there be of adding any outside blood to the original gamedogs used for baiting/fighting such a move would have been disastrous obviously it was dione by a few less intelligent people back then just like today people have added outside blood to stafford and pitbull lines . Howevor we all know which dogs carry this outside blood and avoid it the same applied back then , do you honestly believe some one who had a game strain of dogs would add outside blood , that hold no more validity than to say the Gadolphin racehorse owners have added Welsh Cob or Shire horse blood to enhance there stud . To much validity is placed on the writings of old were statements are seen as facts , its the same on here were people repeat stories told by others that were not there as if they are facts when in fact its a crock of bullshit but with the passing of time it becomes the history of the game . Authors like Stratton and Bob Stevens write books and become experts yet have never matched a dog but are seen as wise dogmen the same with the book that fool Harrison wrote some years ago its now a collectors item yet my old friend The Plymouth Rock Maurice Dann is talked about in derogatory terms when in fact he did more for the dogs than anyone in England and we wouldnt have a gamedog scene were it not for Danns involvement back in the days , and for this he deserves credit and a big thankyou from everyone .

 

I read all these post with great interest and keep hearing that EBTs aren't game which surprises me, don't get me wrong I am not saying that they are as I have no personal experience with the breed but have always thought that they were, alot of people are actually afraid of them when they see them out and about. Where has their fersome reputation come from, does anyone know?
Thanks

 

Well many websites I have came across say the bull terrier was the original gladiator (fighting dog). People read this crap and believe it. Not to mention people read about the old bull and terrier and think its the same dog.

 

thanks for reply j.t. truth be told i would be out of my depth if i was to try and argue facts about the quality of the past wheatens down from these e.b.t crosses. i will asume your speaking from 1st hand experience with these wheatens but personally i would have to start my arguement with the famous words "i was told" or "i heard that". having said that tho, i do find it hard to believe that some of the hardcore wheaten fanatics that have been involved in working/testing and breeding these same dogs down from them crosses over the years have been kidding themselves. as for the wheaten terrier dissapearing . well its not my buisness to say on the net who keeps what and how game they are or arnt but they are still around although not in the numbers they once were which makes sence as these dogs are a relic of the past and things are done differently in field work today as im sure you know. as for the bull and terrier debate. the main point i was trying to make was that i believe we should challenge the mainstream belief that the early bulldog that was used to pin bulls by the nose was a game dog at all and so loosing gamness wasnt an issue when crossed with the terrier. maybe this bull and terrier cross fighting dog only achieved what we know as gamness years after these crosses were made through more selective breeding. i think we read the words "great fighting dog" and assume they were game dogs that these men fought. a.t.b bren...

 

That if you consider a Wheaten terrier is Game (bull in the mix or not)...at a official trials, they only had to do 6 minutes, and the dog knew the Badger just fought to get away... They (Wheatens) ware considered game if they did 6 minutes

 

ricky il be honest . when the official trials were taking place i was still pissing my pants and watching that ginger bastard bosco on tv so i wont pretend im qualified to speak about the test. but as im sure you know the lads that wanted to make sure their dogs were actually game had different methods of testing them on badger that was outside trial rules. just to be clear tho ricky, when i say game i mean game to badger. a.t b. bren...

 

The test of gameness was as you say six mins but obviously dogs would be worked harder in the country , howevor what im saying is the Wheaten was a game BADGER dog not a fighting dog and to fight them in my eyes is wrong they are not a fighting breed . As to the crossing of Bull blood to the Wheatens it produced some great BADGER dogs that were game to BADGER and superior to the Staffords at the time just the same as Peter Sinead was a superior Badger dog to the great staffords in the early seventies thats why he was Dog of Year three years in succesion the only dog any breed ever to achieve this , howevor these dogs were game to BADGER not fighting . The offspring from the Bull/Wheaten crosses got weaker as each generation passed , most if not all the working lines were crossed and though many claim to have pure Wheatens , this is as valid as the claims that the present Blue staffords are pure Staffords , doubtless there are Wheatens with bull blood that are game today the same as there are staffords with Bull blood that are game but to say they are pure or gamebred is wrong . The English Bull is not a game breed thats been bred for gameness , some may fight and show to be game howevor they are not gamebred and have a hundred years of non working blood behind them the addition of Bull blood is like adding a dog turd to a tub of ice cream you can add all the ice cream to the tub afterwards but aint no way im gonna eat it , no matter how much ice cream you add .

 

What you say would apply to all Staffords! Then there are simply no game bred dogs regardless of Bullterrier blood or not. There are too much show blood infused in all the dogs, there are also a lot of untested dogs in all strains. You have even admitted here having some cur blood in your own dogs.

Out of a pure scientific point of view, after a certain amount of generations something is not relevant anymore. To use that old stupid metaphor, if I would piss in your pint of beer you would probably notice it! But if someone did it in the tank at the brewery you would not have a chance in the world to notice it- because it was too diluted to make a real difference. Even if you would take a sample to a laboratory they would probably not be able to prove that someone did it. It is doubtful that a geneticist even would be able to prove any BT blood in the working Stafford´s of today, due to the close relationship between the breeds! You are probably aware of the fact that Stafford blood at one point where infused in the Bullterrier to add colour and combat the inherited deafness.

I do not believe in breeding the way some do, by stacking a certain famous dog as many times as possible in a pedigree. If that dog is too far back it will not make a difference, you will not be sure that you capitalize on that dog anyhow. I believe to breed good and honest dogs no matter what, if they have an infusion of Bull terrier blood done 50 years back, it is no longer relevant. By all scientific standards the “Irish” Stafford would qualify as a pure bred dog, and it would also qualify as a pure bred Staffordshire bull terrier.

When I hear you speak about “pure” etc., it is like hearing the ramblings of Don Mayfield, now all respect to that man, but his views do not carry any scientific backup. I do not understand the sacred value of “pure family”- none of the top dogs of today would qualify as pure family. Take Gr CH Chilindrina for an example she would not be labelled a pure family bred dog by your standards. On top of that, 6-7 generations down the pedigree you have all these curs, like Bullysson, Snooty and Bo. According to your way, a dog bred like her would not be worth feeding. Yet most people in the world interested in gamedogs would take a dog like her before any pure bred family bullshit out there.

If I were to listen to your ramblings, I could just as well go out and shoot all dogs on my yard, so could just about every dogman out there. A working dog proves it´s worth when working, not by showing a superb pedigree; look at the noble men of today. Many have great pedigrees with great people in it, but many of them are too degenerated to be able to do anything comparable to their ancestor that made their linage what it is.

The concept of “pure bred” dogs is actually a Victorian invention, invented by the nobility and aristocracy! They laid the foundation of the show bred dogs winning ribbons out there today. It is just appalling that some claimed working dog people has bought in to their way so hard that they cannot acknowledge a good working dog because some minor flaw´s 50 years back in their pedigree.

 

she proved her record in four different countries......mexico,brazil,serbia, & usa.

 

On the Rocks tell me where i told anyone i had cur blood in my dogs or better still that i bred from a dog that i knew had cur blood thats a LIE . As for show blood or untested blood then whos dogs are you talking about certainly not mine , i have NEVER bred from a dog that wasnt proven game , by thisi dont mean some dealer or wannabe telling me that someone else told them they were game , thats what you and others on here do , and theen when someone tells you that a certain dog quit or wasnt bred the way its shown , you all have a hissy fit . I wont try to explain breeding to you as it wouldnt matter , you have your views and i have mine . I dont care if a dog won twenty four times if the dog is sired by a cur thats out of a cur thats out of a cur then i MYSELF wouldnt own the dog i might condition it for someone but NEVER would i breed from such a low value dog , now you might and thats your choice but dont try to say im wrong the only way to prove ones understanding is with weights not on a message board talking silly , truth is proven in the pit or the field . My understanding comes from conditioning matching breeding and culling over a thirty year period not from listening to bullshit from people that were never involved in the matchres they talk about , i talk about what i saw and was part of not gossip tickle tackle and rumours . You also say aboutshow blood in dogs then tell me were the show blood is in my dogs ? you havent a clue what dogs i own , tell me were the curs are ? How is it that you talk about others dogs and not your own , im able to talk about the dogs that I showed back in the day i dont need to repeat gossip because i WAS there and involved , it dont matter diddly squat what some dog does in Africa or China whats that got to do with the dogs your feeding , what have your dogs done ? what great dogs are they bred from ? what did you do to improve those dogs ? its easy to talk about others dogs when youve done nothing yourself thats a common practice in these dogs were people talk like they were or are involved simply because they own a dog . Now i dont know you or your dogs and dont want to , even when i was active i wasnt intrested in a dogs breeding or who owned the dog just the weights .Like you say a dog proves its way in working thats why dogs like Moonshine , Ricky , Milo and many others DID NOT prove there worth nor did Bullyson a thirty minute cur that tried to jump the pit , now you might breed to such a dog and i WOULD NOT thats your choice but if thats your understanding you believe that . Howevor do not try to convince me that im wrong and your right at least not on a message board , my understanding isnt gained on a board or listening to stories its proven were it matters . As for the outside or cur blood in dogs add it all up in the dogs you own and tell me its diluted , and your telling me that youd drink beer with piss in it or ice cream with a dog turd in it ? Its not one dog that had Bull blood or that quit certain dogs are bred around dogs that quit and people like you that choose to ignore this are simply continuing the lies , you can make all the excuses you want the facts are those dogs Quit and some asshole decided to breed to them it dont matter what there descendants are doing today the fact is they quit now accept it and stop making excuses for liking cur bred non gamebred dogs just dont try to tell me your right and im wrong at least not on a message board , but your welcome to PM me ANYTIME !!!!

 

I think people who keep APBTs for sport have a higher standard from what they think gameness is compared to people who trialed their dogs... people call "Bullyson" a cur ..I have no doubt in the breed history of Wheaten terriers there was never one as game as "Bullyson" so its just a matter what you call game.... even people who tested their Wheatens on a hunt would rarely give more than 20 minutes...and the dogs ware never dominated in these tests... as for Wheatens being the better breed I remember how people use to keep these Staffords... little fat dogs never in condition...as photo below shows


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Great post OnTheRocks you hit the nail on the head wit this post. You'v said what every1 reading JT Ellison's posts is thinking.

 

I never said Wheatens were gamer than Pitbulls but as i owned staffords that qualified many times Wolf Island Warrior being one and also owned Wheatens then i feel able to pass judgement , the Wheatens were game as to the standard they were judged that wasnt my standard but the Irish Kennel Clubs . The Peter Sinead dog was active at the time of Geronimo who was a great game stafford so he was a better badger dog at the time , im not saying he was a gamer dog at anything else . I also ket Pitbulls and worked them owning and breeding a number of Champions and Grand Champions so i also understand gameness in a fighting dog .Incidently i also saw a number of great pitbulls including a Rom dog that wouldnt work a badger on the ground , were these dogs curs ? id say not , one of the Pitbulls got bit once and danced around the badger barking and snapping at it howling every time he got nipped , the same dog later won dead game in over two hours , id say this dog was a game dog wouldnt you . This post started of about terriers/bulldog crosses and id say the Wheaten was the gamest non bull breed i saw work but would i consider crossing one to a pitbull to breed a better fighting or baiting dog then that wouldnt be a step backward but more a triathalon and that view holds about as much sense as the man in the moon .

 

The same applies to you BGK if you think im wrong prove it? Tell us about the great dogs you owned bred and showed or are ypou like the rest of them thats never showed a dog but have listened to stories from people who also never showed a dog , my understanding is gained from being invoved with dogs over thirty years not reading books or listening to fools that never showed a dog or talk about events they never saw , i talk about what i saw and did thats all a matter of truth and facts even the curs i owned , but unlike others i never bred from them . As for everyone who reads my post thinking what you think then thats a sad day for the gamedog scene and the reason why its in the state it is today , the only way to prove truth isnt on a board by making silly comments but by speaking the truth , the fact some cant handle the truth can usually be explained by looking whats on the chains of those who disagree , i myself wouldnt like to be told that the dogs i owned and was proud of were not bred as i thought they were or had curs behind them or Bull or Mastiff blood . howevor i wouldnt argue if it was true id simply get rid , now thats my choice . Dont belittle when i tell you the truth if a diog quits you cull it dont matter if its Snooty , Bullyson , Milo , CH Gnasher or whatever they quit thats it tough shit now accept it , if you think its right to breed to acur thats sired by a cur well fine but i DO NOT,

 

If I had a APBT that did not work a badger I think it is a cur... Iv never seen a good one that would not work one... to them its just a furry animal, nothing to be scared off...I know who BGK is, his father does and grandfather did keep these dogs..he has a yard of dogs, but what I dislike is when people say Wheatens are game (from a test that does not actually test a dog) but if a APBT stoppes in a long match its a cur...most of the famous SBTs that came from Ireland and sent back to the UK where untested...sold because of their pedigrees...and the trials dogs that ware sent over as game, where sent on the 6 minute test ..that 6 minute was the game test..

 

I have never said that Wheatens were game or compared them to pitbulls , what i said was that under the rules set by the Irish kennel club they were game thats not my opinion. im quite aware what a game dog looks like and acts like and believe ive been lucky enough to breed and own a few that proved themselves in competition like ive said many times terriers are for hunting and pitbulls for fighting , i dont agree with putting pitbulls on badgers it proves nothing , so once again i will tell you then you understand what im saying I DONT think Wheatens are game as regards fighting and DONT think they are as game as Pitbulls but i DO know what a GAME dog is

 

Im not arguing just have a discussion, your one of the few on here that know what they are talking about...

 

Im not arguing either and agree with what you say howevor if you were the owner of Bullyson when he quit cold to Benny Bob in thirty mins and tried to jump the pit , would you have taken him home ? also when Snooty quit on all four feet would you have taken him home ? i myself wouldnt have but then were all different and thats what makes the game intresting and competitive

 

BH didnt take bullyson home after the benny bob match....he died outside the pit.

Not making excuses for the performance. But alot of dogs proving their worth in Europe are bred from Crap sent over in the 80s from Garner and Patrick......go figure.

I would breed to a dog that lost. Depends the way the loss was delivered. I would only breed if I was personally there as a witness not third hand news. But the said dog would have to make it through the night which is usually the hard part.

 

no I would put Bullyson down...but seen how well he produced ,,,better than most other dogs..!!!....I don't think he would have quit as he did if in the condition he was in for his first two matches.... he has become one the biggest influences in APBTs, lots of the top bloodlines are based on dogs down from Bullyson