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staffies and pitbull's history

Discussion in 'Staffordshire Bull Terriers' started by DiMaSaLaNg, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. OnTheRocks

    OnTheRocks Moderator

    Perhaps you should read my reply again. When I stated there where claims they where gamer 50 years ago in the US than today- it would include that they where gamer 100 years ago when they arrived from the Uk...

    There are probably more dogs today than 50 years ago. But the breeding today is in too many cases managed by bafoons. And that is what that old man stated. You can not compare it dog by dog, a dead game dog is a dead game dog! You can only compare it in percentage, and I believe it is plausible that dogs where gamer 50 years ago. Because a lot of people value other traits today.

    Now, when I stated bigger breeding program- I of course meant after the breed were established in the US, its not relevant if the breeding program was bigger in the Uk for the first 50 years. What is relevant is that the best dogs where exported and the best of them got bred!

    For the rest I think it is a uninteresting debate if the dogs are of English or US origin. Today the breed is global, in 50 years from now you will have completely different strains in differnt regions of the planet.
  2. wildchild

    wildchild Pup

    Your on a roll now! haha, dont stop now.
    great post.
  3. cromsboss

    cromsboss Big Dog

    the comedy is in your post active irish

    I never said the dogs originated in America, I said they were developed there into the breed they are today, the apbt, they carry the name american in their title because it was through the hard work of americans that the breed flourised and evolved

    again comical, fire from a kerry blue, kerry blues with real working ability are like a needle on a sandy beach, I doubt you could find one

    the name staffordshire was associated with an english breed when ???
    the answer is 1935 when recognised by the KC

    what were the dogs arriving in America called in the 1800's and 1900's ??? a variety of things from old family dogs, blue pauls, bull and terriers, etc....

    where did these dogs originate from that were arriving in the USA in the 1800's and before ???
    they came from Ireland AND the U.K.
    some say the red dogs that were in the US before the civil war were from Spain and France

    you probably believe that a white english terrier was bred to a bull dog in Staffordshire in england to create these dogs , now that's comical

    I don't have time to go into a long history lesson for you, but it is widely known that irish families went to the U.K. to work, some went to Staffordshire to work at coal, some brought their dogs with them from Ireland to England in the 1800's and before

    there is no doubt in my mind that working dogs moved back and forth between the isles, from Ireland to the U.K. and vise versa

    so it is impossible to determine or claim that these dogs of type originated in any one country

    please research the true history , not the KC history of these dogs

    a very interesting article was written by R. H. Voss in 1933 in a british publication called "Our Dogs" , it gives an interesting account of history and the development of the bull breeds throughout europe
  4. tommy1985

    tommy1985 Big Dog

    The idea of romans having anythin to do with the breeding of pitbulls is hilarious! The origins of all dogs can be traced back quite far. Even the greyhound shaped dogs were painted on the pyramids in egypt, but there is no other breed with such a well documentated history as the pitbull. It is without any doubt that the dogs originated in england and ireland. From here they moved all over the world because of their success in the pit. Once these dogs were started to be bred for looks and not performance they were ruined but there are still some good dogs left. Fingers crossed they don't die out anytime soon.
  5. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    oh but it's very much relevant if the breeding program was bigger in the UK for the first 50 years, and it's interesting you've just said
    >"Perhaps you should read my reply again. When I stated there where claims they where gamer 50 years ago in the US than today- it would include that they where gamer 100 years ago when they arrived from the Uk... "< because you've just contradicted your privious "Their American" statement,
    Also very valid is the fact you've pointed "they arrived from the UK 100 years ago" because bullbaiting etc was banned in 1835 and the bull and terrier dogs "Pitbulls" were produced after that for dog fighting, 1835 - 2012 = 177 years, if you deduct 10 years to allow for the development of the breed that still means England were producing them for 67 years before the first one arrived off the boat in the USA, that's a lot of catching up and very doubtful if a hand full of dogs could not only produce the same number of pups than the number that dogs that were here after 67 years of breeding them and still doing so while you's were just getting started.
    So we have now concluded the dogs are and were definately bred by the English and shipped there with immigrants.
    You also have not answered at all my question regarding the outcome of "If I produced a Derry Bullterrier"??
    the reason being you know the answer would have to be that no matter what happened it wouldn't change the origin of the breed and it would never be an american breed, which is exactly what you're proposing that makes the Pitbull an American dog?
    It's not and never will be, you's just have to learn to accept it
  6. jacko

    jacko CH Dog

    was bull and other baiting "sports" popular in Ireland as it was in England pre 1835 ?
  7. OnTheRocks

    OnTheRocks Moderator

    Where have I stated that I regard it as a sole american breed? On the contrary, I stated that I tought that debate was pretty uninteresting. 50-100 years from now the breed will have very different strains all over the world, and the people working them will probably not have a clue that the dogs came from America, and before that from the Uk...

    If you would read my posts a bit more carefully, you would probably see I was closer to your statement, than your opponents in the debate. I get the impression your just eager to argue... Please feel free to do that, but dont smash in open doors! ;)
  8. cromsboss

    cromsboss Big Dog

    I think the first written account of a public bull bait in Ireland was in the late 1700's in Waterford

    the dogs were kept to aid a butcher in his work, not just for public amusement

    due to political circumstances and colonosation of Ireland at that time there are very few written records about dogs, as any that were written were done so by wealthy english settlers or landlords

    I think another question would be , does anyone really believe that matching dogs only began after 1835 ?
  9. tommy1985

    tommy1985 Big Dog

    No one knows that it only began in 1835, but its is recorded that at that time the terriers were crossed with bulldogs to be used in the pit, this would imply that it was when dogs were specifically bred for this purpose and the pitbull was created, if such a dog had already existed they wouldn have needed to do that. They'd have just used what was already available.
  10. jacko

    jacko CH Dog

    bull-baiting is said to have started in England during the reign of king john.
    but as a "sport" it was started in Stamford England by william warenne in 1209.
  11. cromsboss

    cromsboss Big Dog

    before KC were created, most dogs of type did not have an official breed name, they were given names associated to where they lived or the work that they did
    a dudley terrier, a staffordshire terrier, a bulldog, a blue paul, an irish bulldog may all have been the same type,
    not seperate types like todays terriers and bulldogs
  12. Icepick

    Icepick Banned

    It would take longer than 10 years to develop a breed. You would have to raise a dog and watch to see if it produced pups with the same characteristics as the sire and dam, and then breed them for maybe 4 more generations,, selectively breeding at that. The foundation of the APBT did come from the U.K. or the isles, not sure which, but the breed was refined to what it was/is by the American people. As was pointed out earlier, bullbating and other activities were banned in the U.K. in 1835, activities were not banned in the U.S. until the mid 1970's, and thats the time that was used to refine the breed to American Pitbull Terrier.
  13. jacko

    jacko CH Dog

    (tried to edit but not enough time lol)
    dog fights were said to have taken place as side events at other baiting shows. but it was not until the 1800s that dogs were specifically created for this task.
  14. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    lol, the breed was created and already flourished for over 60 years in the UK & Ireland BEFORE one arrived in the USA, Ed Reid clearly states in his book "The Canine Gladiator" that the dogs came from the UK, but even Ed Reid is not over 160 years old, Your Colby Strain of Pitbull > All his were imported from here because they were better and gamer?
    The KC history does not interest me as the KC Show versions were only from the 1930s onwards, lets keep it all history> Breed produced from crossing Bulldogs with Terriers shortly after 1835 in England, approximately 67 years of breeding them went on before the first immigrants arrived in the USA with them.
    We've still been breeding them ever since also, so we're approximately 67 years ahead, but the that's irrelevant, it doesent matter there was only 100 per year bred here since and 1000 per year there, it doesent change a thing about where it came from or make it an American breed even if you's ended up with more of them.
    Now considering everyone on this website believes the original game bred pitbull is the only one worth talking about then it's safe to assume any chances made to the dog after it entered America was not an improvement, if anything the changes there and here to meet show standards was and is a disaster, and since most breeders of the old type here never tampered with the already proven methods and continued to produce pitbulls and old type staffords of the same high quality and still do, it's fair to say the only Real Pitbulls are to found with anyone in the USA still breeding from the direct decendants of the imported dogs or here in Ireland because the UK has banned Pitbulls although some exist there we in Ireland have never been without them and their still as good now as they were then.
  15. cromsboss

    cromsboss Big Dog

    I thought the first written account of bull baiting in england was in the 1100's
    either way how did most sports develop ?

    how did boxing develop into a sport ?
    it was around a long time before it ever developed into a sport

    this does not prove that these dogs originated in england
  16. cromsboss

    cromsboss Big Dog

    if they are still as good now as they were then , then explain why ppl throughout the isles imported the new and improved dogs from the USA
    if they were so good here, we wouldn't have imported any apbt's, and true working staffords would not be in such decline
  17. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    If that was the case why do pitbulls here look exactly the same now as they did here 150 years ago? how come the best game bred pitbulls and old type staffords look exactly the same as the dogs imported there to create the Colby Dogs etc?
    The dogs here from 150 years ago until today have the same look, same stamina, same everything as the very best of the game bred dogs in the USA, and also important to remember, if the first Pitbulls were taken there by their Irish Immigrant owners, who then continued to breed them, that means they were being bred by Irish men in America, which means the first imported Pitbulls in the USA were brought from Ireland and England by their owners and continued to be bred there by their owners who then would have sold some which would have been bred from to create more etc.
    Dog from Ireland & England Men from mostly Ireland and Scotland, some English and all that adds up to American Pitbull? don't make me laugh.
  18. jacko

    jacko CH Dog

    king john was crowned in 1199.
  19. cromsboss

    cromsboss Big Dog

    jacko, I'm not going to argue with you over the date lol
  20. activeirish

    activeirish Big Dog

    Business reasons, there's no doubt many good dogs were produced in the USA from the imported dogs, and often dogs are line bred or inbred to conserve their traits, so if a good Pitbull is produced from good stock, whever that mating took place doesent matter? if the original parents were still in Ireland and maybe most of the litter brothers and sisters of the female that produced good in the USA then it's surely worth bringing one to the other, if you can't bring Mohammed to the Mountain, then bring the Mountain to Mohammed??
    The dogs were imported both directions in more modern times and are still being brought in and out of Dublin, but since Ireland is a Rabies free country you'll find it's more likely and less expensive for the dogs to to there than it is for them to come here because there's no need for quarrantine going out.
    Also the old type stafford is on the up again, there's many on this forum from Ireland and a very large number of Stafford owners who do not breed for showing here, there's still staffords of 18 - 20 inches being produced here and no shortage of pure bred pitbulls

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