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Sometimes they are white....

Discussion in 'Patterdale Terriers' started by snakewidomski, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. snakewidomski

    snakewidomski Big Dog

    [​IMG]
    Widomski's Eberhart
    Widomski's Bad Billy X Widomski's Anaconda
     
  2. snakewidomski

    snakewidomski Big Dog

  3. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    Good looking little pup, pretty unique color...I LIKE IT...
    Whats the cataylist, bull terrier or jrt???
    Does anybody know of any breeders crossing FELL TERRIERS/ Patterdales with JRTs???
    Bad Billy looks like a dachsund type of HOTDOG, half a dog tall and two dogs long.
    As long as he can go to ground, im game...
    When it comes to breeding WHITE DOGS, HISTORY PREVAILS....
    " IF THIER TOO WHITE, THE GENETICS ARE TOO TIGHT"...
    As stupid as it sounds, if thier worth breeding outcross to a black/chocolate ASAP to avoid defects...
     
  4. Staub

    Staub Big Dog

    What does HOF mean?
     
  5. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    Hall of fame..
     
  6. snakewidomski

    snakewidomski Big Dog

    I have tried to find out where the white color comes from. Most people who have seen the pedigree thought it was the JRT, but nobody knows it exactly.
    One year later I made a second breeding with the same female and a 50% Pit Pat male. There were three white ones in that litter, too. The puppies are 5 month old now and looks like some dogs of today who were bred out of the Psycho stuff.
    The father of both parents, in both litters, is Widomski's Devil. So I think it is in his genetics.
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [339294] :: WIDOMSKI'S DEVIL (SCHWAB'S XAVER)
     
  7. snakewidomski

    snakewidomski Big Dog

    Devil is the best worker and producer I have ever had. That's the reason why you find him in every breeding that I have made in last four years.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. snakewidomski

    snakewidomski Big Dog

    Another white one from the Bad Billy X Anaconda breeding. All others are black.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Torresbeag

    Torresbeag Big Dog

    I would think it has to come from both sides, I have bred a 1/4 pit x 1/4 JRT x 1/2 Paterdale back to a JRT and never got a white pup yet. I'm not an expert on genetics, but I was told white is recessive to black/red and I would have to bred JRT back into the line to get a white pup.
     
  10. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    Maybe its just my eye sight but what is up with Devils dew claw?
     
  11. snakewidomski

    snakewidomski Big Dog

    He lost the inside toe when he was very young.
     
  12. snakewidomski

    snakewidomski Big Dog

    You can see it better here...
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    So does Devil have some JRT in him? Plus 35lbs is huge for a Patt aint it? I am new to Patterdales so I am just curious.
     
  14. snakewidomski

    snakewidomski Big Dog

    The Patterdale Terrier is bred for working and there were a few other dogs of other breeds, who were bred into the PT. But they have had to be very, very good and very hard tested, befor they were using for breeding. A lot of breeders did it. ....Black is dominant in breeding, so there are only a few who has other colors. ....The PT is a working Terrier who is bred for earthwork, not for pure race, or color, or what ever.
    For badger you need bigger dogs than for fox. But badger hunting is banned in England. So you find there mostly the smaller ones now. Devils 35 lbs is chainweight, not working weight. He is able to enter a badger set. He is only 14.5 inches high in shoulder.
     
  15. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    I was just wondering because when reading some of the info on patterdales in the history section it says originally in the lakeland fell areas they were on the smaller side like 12lbs-20lbs, which is why I was wondering if they were later crossed out to increase there size to 30-35lbs.
     
  16. snakewidomski

    snakewidomski Big Dog

    In the beginning there were crosses with Working StaffBulls, who were bred for badger hunting. And that dogs were bigger than that who were bred for fox. Which book are you talking about? Is there some info about Cyril Breay and Frank Buck, or Ken Gould, or David Harcombe?
     
  17. snakewidomski

    snakewidomski Big Dog

    Devil is a son of Bramati's Nerone and Gordon Mason's Tinka. Both dogs are bigger than most Patterdale Terriers, but they are excellent earthdogs.
    Here you can read a short story by Gordon Mason:
    Gordon Mason ::
     
  18. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    It wasnt a book it was from a article on the internet let me post it for you.

    Joe Bowman, the Ullswater Huntsman, from Foxes, Foxhounds & Foxhunting
    by Richard Clapham, published in 1923.


    Most of the folks that write books on dogs would like their breeds to be ancient and have romantic and mysterious origins. Pick up any book on Jack Russell Terriers, for example, and Trump will be presented as the first white foxing terrier on earth -- never mind that the young John Russell selected it for looks alone and had no problem finding another white foxing terrier to mate with it.

    The Border Terrier folks have wrapped the story of their dog completely around the axle in an attempt to give it an ancient origin. In fact this breed was created at about the same time as the Kennel Club was created, and it was pulled on to the Kennel Club roles as quickly as could be.

    As for the Patterdale Terrier, quite a few people claim one person or another created the dog, and yet all seem quite confused as to the shape of the head. Where did that come from?

    In fact it is no mystery, and the true story of the Patterdale is not too deeply buried or very old.

    In 1873, the Patterdale and Matterdale hunts were combined to form the Ullswater Foxhounds. In 1879 Joe Bowman (just 22 years old) was made master of the Ullswater, a position he held (with a few short interuptions) until 1924, when he was replaced by Joe Wear who held the position for then next 47 years. Joe Bowman died in 1940 -- one of the most famous huntsmen of all time (there is even a song about him)

    Joe Bowman was an early Border Terrier breeder, and he was also the first person to cross up a blue-black Border Terrier with a black and tan Fell Terrier (also called a working Lakeland) to create what he called a Patterdale Terrier.

    In Jocelyn Lucas' book, Hunt and Working Terriers, a table at the back notes that the United Hunt prefered a "Lakeland, Patterdale, from J. Boroman's strain (Ullswater kennels)."

    In fact, "J. Boroman" is a typo, and the real man was Joe Bowman.

    Lucas published his book in 1931, and the information in it was collected between 1925 and 1930. The Patterdale Terrier was clearly a type (if not a widely used type) by the 1920s, and it centered on the Ullswater Hunt and Joe Bowman.

    With that knowledge, it was not too difficult a thing (but not too easy either!) to lay a hand on Foxes, Foxhounds & Foxhuning by Richard Clapham, published in 1923. Here we find not only a good picture of Joe Bowman (see top), but the picture reproduced below with caption.

    "One of the 'Patterdale' breed."

    Now we can see that the "Patterdale" name goes back to at least the Nineteen-teens -- a period just before the Border Terrier (which, like the Patterdale, started out as little more than what we would call today a Fell terrier topday) was pulled into the show ring. To see what Border Terriers looked like in 1915, click here.

    At about the time that Joe Bowman was fading out of the dog breeding business, in the 1930s, a young Cyril Breay was stepping up. Breay, like Bowman, had been a Border Terrier breeder.

    In the early 1930s Breay met Frank Buck, when Buck rescued one of Breay's dogs that had gotten stuck in a deep rock cleft and Buck -- an expert at dynamite -- had blasted it free.

    Bucks own line of dogs at the time were descended from Ullswater terriers kept by Joe Bowman, and Breay and Buck soon became fast friends with Breay breeding black dogs from Frank Buck into his line, and Buck crossing tight Border Terrier coats into his. Over time, the dogs of the two men devolved to a type as lines were crossed and condensed.

    Cyril Breay was always adamant that the Patterdale Terrier was not made by crossing in Bull Terrier, and he was not lying. The Patterdale head is no mystery to a border terrier owner - the same broad cranial outlines are evident in both breeds.

    Brian Nuttal began breeding Patterdales in the late 1950s, and says that his dogs are very much like those his father kept in the 1930s. It would not surprise me a bit to find that Nuttal's father got his dogs from Bowman, or from intervening hands that had gotten their dogs from Bowman. What is clear is that the Patterdale Terrier was already a recognized type by the time Nuttal's father owned his dogs.

    The fact that Joe Bowman started the Patterdale strain and named it takes nothing away from folks like Cyril Breay, Frank Buck and Brian Nuttal, all of whom did quite a lot to popularize the breed, maintain it as a working dog, and perhaps improve and stabilize its looks. It is an easy thing to name a new breed (it's done every day by puppy peddlers), but quite another to find a market and a following for the dogs based on their performance in the field.

    I mention all of this (I have told the story before and it is in the book), because I found a rather interesting old obituary on the internet the other day. Note the byline. With some amusement I note that "Greystoke Castle" was (supposedly) the ancestral home of Tarzan:


    September 1956
    PATTERDALE - One of Ullswaterside’s oldest residents, Mrs. Esther Pattinson, Broadhow, Patterdale, died at the age of 85. Formerly Miss Bowman, Matterdale, she hailed from a noted hunting family — her uncle was the celebrated Joe Bowman, huntsman of the Ullswater foxhounds for 42 years, while her great-grandfather, Joe Dawson, was for many years huntsman of the one-time Matterdale foxhounds. Mrs. Pattinson was only 13 years of age when she was hired as a farm girl, later working at Lyulph’s Tower for Mr. James Wood, who was agent for Lady Mabel Howard, Greystoke Castle.



    In the end, it turns out that Joe Bowman was born in High Row, Matterdale and died in Patterdale. It was, no doubt, an added bonus that Patterdale was also the old name of the Hunt that was both his employer and his passion. Finally, it should be noted that Patterdale was also the town where Joseph Dawson Bowman died, at the age of 88.
     
  19. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    I'll see if I can get a picture of my female jack Russell.She has a color pattern I never saw ,she is ticked lil black spots,like a bird dog..Her ears stood straight up naturally and I never saw another one like her or her brother..She is short legged ..Her brother same color pattern and his ears flopped and he was tall and rangy.A farmer offered me a good price for him so he is now working on a farm.One hell of a varmit dog and he will even herd cows.I still can breed to him when I want.The female I kept for myself and she is a straight up lil bitch.I am the only human that can touch her .She loves to dig.And has great patience and very intelligent..Prey drive is off the chart.
     
  20. snakewidomski

    snakewidomski Big Dog

    Different breeders has bred different types of some Working Terriers. You can see it in every strain that is not bred for show.
    I don't want a dog because of his standard, I want a dog who is doing the work. For me it is not important whats the name of the breed, or if the dog is pure bred. ....Patterdale Terrier, Black Dog, Fell Terrier or what ever. ....I call them Patterdale Terriers because that is the name where their ancestors are registered. ....I think it is better to call them by the name of the breeder.
     

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