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Should APBT's be used in protection/guard training!

Discussion in 'Sports & Activities' started by Flipside, Jun 18, 2005.

  1. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    It happens. Nothing is absolute. But the odds are very slim. At that seminar it used a story I will paraphrase. Dog gets hit by car. It is taken to the vet. Guy says save him I will pay for it. Vet saves the dog. Bill is way up there. Guy changes his mind. The dog ends up being the office hound. He is a mixed up mutt. Guy breaks into the office with the female vet in the back. Dog rips him a new ass. Crotch damage to boot. Turns out guy has been convicted of sexual assault before. Dog saves woman. Woman and her homeowners get sued. She loses homeowners and has to move the practice.


    The point when for us was two fold. One, any time a dog bites someone the owner is on the hook. Check the local laws but most are really similar with a dog off lead. Secondly, it was millions to one that dog would protect that office. Seems like Indiana or Illinois but I can't remember.


    I got out what a f'ed up place to live if that is allowed to even make it to court, much less win. But that is the world in which we live.


    We have Beagle that runs the yard. If he is in the back and someone pulls up he charges like he is a real bad ass. Then he keeps his distance but never stops barking. Some are scared of the beagle. But if nothing else he lets us know what is outside. For that, he is no completely useless.(his primary job is heat detection. First hint of a heat cycle he whines and cries while looking at the bulldog pen. I go check and he is always on the money. Straight whore dog.


    If a dog performs a task he is OK in my book. Bred for it or trained for it, either way I am a fan.


    S
     
  2. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Guardian breeds are not doing sport or service work. They may do protection work but it is limited. Guardian breeds, mastiffs and mollosser types are defensively driven, territorial dogs. They do not make great working dogs because most lack the true prey drive it takes to become a service/working protection dog.


    The working breeds from the herding group do not pass on guardian or protective instincts either. What they pass on is prey drive, athleticism and a sound nerve. These traits are then trained to do work. Their training is the key. If the dog is not of working caliber no amount of training will ever get him there.


    The mollossers/mastiffs the same. No amount of training will ever create enough prey drive if the prey drive is not there. Without prey drive they won't work.


    Bulldogs have been bred to have natural animal aggression. That is a far bigger obstacle than worrying about a bulldog fighting a man like another dog. The dogs started off early with prey drive, coupled with some defense leads to fight drive. Fight drive in a working dog is a lot different than a bulldog willing to fight. Fight drive in a working dog can be released with a tennis ball. A bulldog won't stop on another dog for a T-bone much less a tennis ball.


    It is indeed all about training. Breeding bulldogs to do man work is not really any different than breeding dogs to perform as game dogs. It is all about traits.


    Training the dogs in one direction is basically the same as schooling in another.


    Having a man working bulldog will do nothing to add to the evening news. Any dog that bites and has one bulldog aspect about him is a pit bull, a child maiming, killer of people, blood thirsty physco-path. Regardless of his actual back ground.


    S








     
  3. Robertosilva

    Robertosilva CH Dog

    Guardian breeds are doing service work and personal protection work all across Russia and Eastern Europe and they do have natural working instinct and plenty of drive.

    Even in America. http://www.alabaiusa.com/personal_protection.htm

    Plenty of Malinois do service work and also schutzhund which is a test for them as well as just for sport.

    Plenty of Central Asian Shepherds, CAO, Russian wolfhounds or whatever you want to call them are doing service jobs and personal protection.

    Plenty of service high drive dogs on here that could do a much better job that a Pit Bull type. Plus they have natural protective instincts that is passed on. I have seen documentaries where Central Asian Shepherds in Georgia Europe have been raised in the city and as soon as soon as they are brought out into the field they are natural guardians without any training.

    Resources
     
  4. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Malinois do service work. Service work and protection work are miles apart. The defensively driven mollossers are territorial and do protection work very well. Some even do so naturally. I owned Fila Brasileiros for quite awhile. Their 'pass/fail' test is to defend without training.


    I had males and females that without ever seeing a sleeve or a man in a suit absolutely destroy him. Unprotected they would have been maimed possibly killed. Some are so defensively driven they have brain lock in which they have to be physically removed and can't come off 'brain lock'. They must be taken far away and it takes 30-40 minutes to wind back down.


    I had a female who actually had prey drive enough to do some lower level sport work but she was the exception to the rule as far as mastiffs/mollossers are concerned.


    If a dog passes on protective instincts odds are the defensive drive is higher than the prey drive and he will not be suitable for service work. Just the way it is.


    Many dogs have competed in Schutzhund and titled to III with only prey drive. It is a game to the dogs. As serious as they are on the sleeve they never have the defense drive to make it as a service dog. The defense needed comes from sound nerve. Very few defensively driven dogs have the nerve it takes to perform service work. Protection work yes, service work no.


    Sometimes it is splitting hairs. But there is a fine line between a prey driven sport dogs and solid nerve working/service dogs.


    S
     
  5. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    nice series of posts Slim,,,
    you can write a good book with all your stories...
     
  6. I guess if they're dumb enough to go on the chain spots
     
  7. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

    Complex topic in my view: prey, defense/civil, fight, hunt drives; human and animal directed aggression; gameness etc.., and how to leverage such drives during sport, work and service etc..

    Posts in this thread via @slim12 are helpful.

    For those interested, related subject is currently being debated on this other non-APBT forum.

    http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/community.read?post=863837-defense
     
  8. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    I will check it out. Lots of great articles at Leerburg.com as well. Lots of information drives, nerves and service work.


    I'm no expert by any means, not by a long stretch.


    Some defensively driven territorial dogs do service work. The odds are simply against them. I had a Rottweiler once that was bred for the work, he was more dog than I was trainer. I learned a boat load from him and the people doing dogs in that way. In time I ended up with Fila Brasileiros. Defensively driven, weak nerved dogs who would willing kill a person who did not belong. So defensively driven/territorial a high five during a ball game would be an act of war and it would be on. So far to that side they are huge liabilities right up to the point they defend your home/family.


    I had a female that had great prey drive for a Fila. She was not as conformationally correct as the show scene would like and she was an outcast. She could do all the things her ancestors were bred to do but on the show scene that is often overlooked. But to each his own.


    It is not like I am encouraging people to run out and make a switch/re-direct the game dog community. It is a simple fact that by creating a performance ace for one line of work, in turn, we have created the potential for a performance ace in another line as well.


    S
     
  9. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    A local man trains gaurd dogs,,,
    he has only two dogs a malinois and a bulldog...

    Both from good working lines,,,
    both the bulldogs parents are fifty/fifty boomer redboy/ frisco blood...

    Both are trained to do sleeve work and both excel at it,,,
    but you take the sleeve away and one still has the natural instinct...

    The bulldog does it for fun and to please his owner but its a bulldogs unnatural instinct,,,
    the malinois on the other hand took very little training and as it was genetically instilled,,,
    and when the owner and sleeve disappear the malinois genetic task stays...

    Sure a bullldog can be trained to do unnatural work,,,
    but as a bulldog excels at its genetic task so do properly bred gaurd dogs at thier work...

    Its cool to have a one in all bulldog that can multi task jobs,,,
    but to see a dog do whats instilled in it naturally with out much training is to see the last decades fruit of the labor...
     
  10. GK1

    GK1 Big Dog

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    My two are family dogs. Yet they both have a level of natural protectiveness/suspicion of strangers which I think is more of natural pack instinct vice disposition to bite humans. As alert/alarm dogs, both are outstanding, 24/7.

    The GS I would classify as a sporty, prey driven dog although dogs in her pedigree reportedly bit effectively in service or protection. For my purposes, her disposition is ideal.

    The APBT is also solid, coming along nicely. When I got her she did not know how to chase a ball, yet I found she has useful, high prey drive. With practice, now a tenacious player with the kong ball, flirt pole and tug. I have a bulky linen bite sleeve, which both dogs hit nicely.

    But of course, biting a big soft sleeve has nothing to do with man-focused protection work.

    Both very physical - I*m working on a comparison of the two in terms of athletic ability: speed, agility, endurance, bite mechanics, swimming etc. Maybe I will gin up the results for consumption on a different thread.
     
  11. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    nice dogs and read GK1...
     
  12. mlmaas

    mlmaas Top Dog

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    This is my 7 month old Dutch/Malinois cross from KNPV working lines, he will bite anything, sleeve or bare skin. He would bite me if I agitated him enough lol.
     
  13. frogs

    frogs Big Dog

    Nice looking dog!!!
     
  14. Robertosilva

    Robertosilva CH Dog

    Wow incredible looking dog, Are you sure that dogs not part Hyena.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    I thought the samething RS,,,
    with a cross to the tazmanian devil!!!

    I wouldnt agitate s#!T!!!

    Is brindle rare with those dogs???
     
  16. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

  17. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    That would be a great 'real world' opinion/post. Looking forward to the comparison. Good looking dogs.


    S
     
  18. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    Nice looking dog. A lot of teeth and a lot of nuts for 7 months.


    The black mask on the brindle makes him look fierce. Great picture. 7 months or 77 months, I'm not coming at him.


    S
     
  19. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog


    for the experienced trainers,,, DONT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!
     
  20. slim12

    slim12 CH Dog Staff Member

    This is an excellent group of working dogs and the group is highly touted. I watched this a number of years ago.

    S
     

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